Matt Gregory (00:12) Morning, Pat. How goes it?

Patrick Dyer Wolf (00:13) Hello, Matt. Good, I have my tiny cup. You know the tiny desk.

Matt Gregory (00:20) you

Patrick Dyer Wolf (00:22) It's hard to even.

Matt Gregory (00:23) I love Tiny Desk. Ugh.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (00:25) it's I've been getting back into it I had I was a little off it for a while I don't know they get a lot of they get a lot of great stuff well I don't want to be petty about it but Bob Bob Boylan was at one of our shows once and I think he was kind of like meh whatever and also the band that we were touring with which we really I'm wearing I'm wearing the t-shirt of the band that we were playing with Bombadil which is a reference to Lord of the Rings I know you were wondering and they're great

Matt Gregory (00:29) Are you? Why? And Wait, I actually know what's up. ⁓ nice. Yeah, Tom Bombadil.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (00:55) They're a great band and he was kind of like mad about both of us. And that's fine, but...

Matt Gregory (01:01) The name you said, sorry, the name you said is the Tiny Desk guy.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (01:05) Yeah, Bob Boylan. I think he might be retired or has stepped back in some way. ⁓ But I have been getting back into it and seeing some really great Tiny Desks recently. They get all sorts of ones.

Matt Gregory (01:06) My boy, on. And I mean, I feel like every Tiny Desk in the comments, it's like, "the audio mixing in this, the guy deserves a raise" because everybody's like, "it's so good." The audio is so good. Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (01:29) I agree. It seems very simple and in the room and whatever, but yeah, I agree.

Matt Gregory (01:38) Yeah. What's going on for you these days?

Patrick Dyer Wolf (01:42) and I'm just getting used to living in Alaska now. It's where we live and actually now today, last today and yesterday it's been like pushing 30 and I'm like, this isn't even, I'm wearing a t-shirt. Yeah. 30 and cozy.

Matt Gregory (01:49) Yes.Yeah, yeah. And cozy. Erty and cozy. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I've a shout out, ⁓ David Epstein. ⁓ he is a, ⁓ a weather guy in Boston that does, ⁓ like a two to three minute Instagram reel every day with his forecast. He's also the guy that does the Boston Globe forecast. He always does it walking his dog outside. ⁓ and,

Patrick Dyer Wolf (02:20) Mm-hmm.  nice.

Matt Gregory (02:28) I just like it's become my thing. Like I'm just referencing him all the time. ⁓ But it's been very cold and apparently so in Boston, it's like around the 50th coldest winter in the recorded history of 150 winters. So we're in we're in kind of a top third territory for coldness. So, yeah, it's cold given what we've been through recently.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (02:44). 50th, so top third of Colbust. top 50. That's pretty that's pretty cool.

Matt Gregory (02:56) ⁓ I did hear, think Heejin told me this morning that maybe that it's gonna be colder in Boston this weekend than it is in the Arctic. Which I don't have a lot of good feelings about.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (03:07) Yikes. It seems wrong.

Matt Gregory (03:12) That seems like things are not flowing the way they should.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (03:16) They're mixed up, up is down.

Matt Gregory (03:18) But anyway, here we are in Trail Map, the show where we talk to amazing people and get inspired on a semi-regular basis ⁓ about their lives and career paths. Today on the show, we have Paul Tasner, who I was just sharing with Pat. think he's probably been in the same room as. Paul is a really ⁓ good and old friend of mine, mentor, a former colleague.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (03:33) Yes.

Matt Gregory (03:48) from Two Degrees Food in San Francisco. He was like almost like a parent. and his his wife Barb were like parent figures to us when we lived in San Francisco. Wonderful human being. Unfortunately Barb passeed last year. He's had a big change in life. He now lives in NYC. He and Barb moved from Marin to NYC, to Stuyvescent town.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (04:10) ⁓Yeah, reacquainted. It's times in time where our friend Jeff used to live many years ago. Right. It's still there, even though Jeff's not there. It's wild. Right. Since Peter Stuyvesant. I think so. The Dutch. Yeah, I know all about it. I know everything. ⁓ Let's do it.

Matt Gregory (05:26) Paul, hello.

Paul Tasner (05:28). Matt, hello. Pat, hello.

Matt Gregory (05:32) Good to have you here. Thank you for joining us.

Paul Tasner (05:35) Thank you guys for inviting me. Probably the most excited I've been on a podcast in a long time.

Matt Gregory (05:44) ⁓ well.

Paul Tasner (05:45) It's not often that you get to know that you've known the host.

Matt Gregory (05:52) Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's ⁓ I think, you know, just starting this podcast, we've had a lot of people on that I know. And it's been really a wonderful excuse to like catch up with people.

Paul Tasner (06:06) Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's a different kind of, it's a different mood, I guess, that's the right word, when it's, you know, a quote stranger, you know, someone you're having on because you wanted to have them on, but you, you know, you really don't know that much about them. Maybe you just know their work or something, but this is great.

Matt Gregory (06:21) Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Well, Paul, I guess for our listeners, wondering if you could introduce yourself.

Paul Tasner (06:40) Sure. The 25 words or less story, are we interested in or? ⁓

Patrick Dyer Wolf (06:48) The elevator pitch?

Matt Gregory (06:50) Yeah,

Patrick Dyer Wolf (06:50) as much as you... Yeah.

Matt Gregory (06:51) as much as you want. like you might in like if you were walking into a bar and you wanted to introduce yourself to somebody.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (06:58) If you're walking into a bar and you were yelling at everybody to shut up so you can explain who you were.

Paul Tasner (07:04) That would be we'd be off on a great start ⁓ What well ⁓

Patrick Dyer Wolf (07:07) Yeah.

Paul Tasner (07:13) Well, first of all, I don't know why I'm leading with this, but I guess it's become kind of a central issue in my life. So I might as well lead with it. I'm 80 years old ⁓ and glad to be doing anything, I guess, at 80 years old, much less being on podcasts and still having a business. ⁓ And that's the other thing is that I started a business. 15 years ago when I was 66. ⁓ Before that, I'd had a career in the corporate world, large companies and small companies doing mostly engineering or supply chain related things. ⁓ Some of which I was educated for, some of which I wasn't. ⁓ But I spent a good 40 years or so in the corporate world, in the on the supply chain side of life and then found myself without a job at the age of 64, actually. I was fired at the age of 64, the first time in my life. It was during the financial crisis or just after the financial crisis. And the company that I worked for didn't... didn't do that well. mean, they thought they were in a recession proof business, but it turned out they weren't. ⁓ they ⁓ fired the CEO, he was the captain of the ship, so he had to take responsibility. ⁓ And that was a gut punch because he was the gentleman that hired me and I thought the world of him. ⁓ And then it just got worse. They replaced him with someone that I didn't have a lot of ⁓ respect for. And I guess ⁓ not being a very accomplished poker player, he was able to read that. And ⁓ I found myself without a job shortly thereafter, along with a lot of other people too. ⁓ So ⁓ turns out it was the proverbial blessing in disguise. ⁓ I kind of bounced around for a few years doing consulting and things of that nature, but because I felt it was kind of my last act, I wasn't really satisfied with what I was doing. I didn't want this to be my swan song, so to speak. So I tried very hard to come up with a concept for a business of my own. It took me a couple of years to land on it, and then I did. ⁓ And that's the business that I still have today. ⁓The business is called Pulpworks and we design and manufacture ⁓ packaging ⁓ for all kinds of consumer goods, retail products and others. ⁓ But we use compostable and biodegradable and recyclable materials to create our packaging. So in other words, we don't use plastic. And if we do have a mission, it's to replace plastic packaging, not all plastic packaging, much of our plastic packaging is important and necessary. ⁓ Try putting a Pepsi into an egg carton and you'll see quickly why plastic is a better choice. But a lot of our plastic packaging is not necessary. can be accomplished with another material. And that's what we provide. ⁓ Turns out we were pretty early to the game and we really struggled to get folks to give us a try. But slowly but surely we got some acceptance. We're still struggling against the tide. mean, the bottom line is most companies don't want to make a switch unless they're really compelled to. They want to stick with their plastic. It's cheaper. It's been working for them for years and years and years. It's a uphill battle for sure. But recently we got legislation on our side. ⁓ There are in many states and in many countries, there's legislation around EPR, Extended Producer Responsibility, essentially means you as the manufacturer of that product, you, Mr. Coca-Cola. you're responsible for that bottle till the very end of its life. And the end of its life means it's either been recycled back as a usable plastic or it's in the ground somewhere. Previously, you were responsible for it just as long as it took for someone else to buy it. Then it was their problem. So EPR has been, it's brand new, brand new. And it's been adopted in I think about eight states so far. And it's been essential for us because now companies don't want to be responsible for that bottle till the end of the day. They want to find an alternative because the fees, the penalties for not using recyclable products or compostable products, they're pretty considerable. So ⁓ it's nice to have that wind that are back now for the first time in 15 years, know, legislation to help us. ⁓ persuade reluctant customers. And, ⁓ and I guess the latest development for me has been that my youngest son, Andrew, ⁓ who recently finished college, ⁓ has joined me in the business and has taken to it as they say, like a fish to water. And he's, he's been amazing. ⁓ best partner I ever had. And ⁓ Now I really, I really not satisfied with sort of treading water as I have been for the last few years with the business. I'd really like to accelerate our, you know, growth and success and everything, because now there's somebody else involved in it too. And so that's been a real motivator for me. ⁓ I guess that's kind of the Professional side of my world, personal side is ⁓ that ⁓ I've got two sons. ⁓ As I mentioned, my son Andrew and an older son Ben. ⁓ I had two stepdaughters and sadly my oldest stepdaughter Amy passed away a few years ago from ovarian cancer and that was hard.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (14:25) my God.

Paul Tasner (14:26) heartbreaking for all of us in the family and her friends. She was really very special. also my late wife passed away around the same time as Amy ⁓ few years ago. So there been some super challenges, but as a family, we've managed to get. past them and a lot of love and comfort going around between all of us. And I'm also very happy to say that in the last six months, I've met somebody else who's brought a lot of joy and happiness into my life, which was pretty unexpected, but I certainly am open and excited about it. things have a way of breaking, fixing, breaking again, fixing again. And it's just exciting to be part of the game, I guess.

Matt Gregory (15:36) You It's the trail of life.

Paul Tasner (15:44) The other trail of life, right. Anyway, so it's been quite a journey. But you're welcome. You're welcome.

Matt Gregory (15:48) Paul, thank you for sharing all that. Thank you for sharing all that. I watched Pat's reac- I know that all that story but I watched Pat's reactions and the ups and downs and you know there's you've been through a lot.

Paul Tasner (16:07) Yeah, I think it sounds inconceivable to somebody listening, you know, when they hear about tragedy. ⁓ But it is different when you're on the front line, so to speak, because you either curl up in a ball and just go in the corner or...

Matt Gregory (16:10) and

Paul Tasner (16:32) you just keep pushing forward, right? What's the expression about the only way through these things is the only way past these things is to go through them sort of, I guess. So yeah, it feels like that's what I've been doing just.

Matt Gregory (16:42) Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Tasner (16:48) I guess a bit of compartmentalizing along the way, that always helps. ⁓ But yeah, just pushing through. Just pushing through.

Matt Gregory (16:53) Yep, for sure. there's a lot to dig into there for us in this conversation. you mentioned that you studied engineering and I know you studied math And I have a feeling that the answer, like, so when you get a PhD in mathematics, like, are you even using numbers at that point or what does that look like?

Paul Tasner (17:04) Yes.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (17:18) It's Goodwill Hunting type stuff.

Paul Tasner (17:22) That's a good way to describe it. I don't think I've ever heard. That's a good way to describe it, Matt. I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe it. Are you even using numbers? Yes, yeah. Those pesky little numbers just keep showing up no matter what field of math you're studying just about.

Matt Gregory (17:23) spoken like an English major.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (17:25) True humanities, student.

Matt Gregory (17:44) so I believe you studied industrial engineering and math and like, I can see how industrial engineering might connect directly to packaging, packaging creation. Like, there a connection there for you in your mind?

Paul Tasner (17:47) I did, I did. Yeah.⁓ Yes, ⁓ certainly it would have an even greater connection if I were involved in some brick and mortar endeavor, ⁓ where I was intimately involved in the actual production itself. My brick and mortar involvement was ⁓ during my corporate career. I worked for companies that had their own facilities or I worked for companies that outsourced manufacturing to other facilities. So I've spent decades of visiting ⁓ brick and mortar facilities and being involved more or less in what was going on there. But I'm no longer doing that now. Our business model is pretty... ⁓ ⁓ I guess I hate to use up words that are, it's nimble. Maybe nimble's not a popular word anymore so I can start using it again. But it used to be in every other sentence. ⁓ But our business model is definitely, it's definitely nimble. ⁓ We have manufacturing partners. ⁓ But we're only involved in their.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (19:22) Bring it back.

Paul Tasner (19:33) actual brick and mortar facilities in as much as we want them to do a superlative job for us. ⁓ you know, they run their own businesses and we're fortunate we've had some good partners. ⁓ So, engineering would certainly have played a greater role in my life if I'd been more involved in the facilities themselves and the systems. Yeah.

Matt Gregory (19:57) Yeah. and the manufacturing.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (20:03) give a sense of the scale of Pulpworks and the market? What type of competition are you dealing with in this space? Are there huge companies that are doing this type of packaging that you... I don't know if emulate is the right word, but I guess I just want to get a sense of where you are in this type of ⁓ packaging space.

Paul Tasner (20:28) Yeah, no, that's a great question, Pat. ⁓ There are some huge companies that do this kind of manufacturing, ⁓ but they're very specific. They ⁓ typically manufacture tableware, the things that you, the cups and bowls and saucers that you buy at the supermarket. and keep in your pantry or if you're a restaurant, all of your restaurant supplies, those paper plates and bowls and things that you use, especially if you're a fast food restaurant, it's the tableware. a commodity and they produce millions and millions of units in their facilities. ⁓ certainly don't, ⁓ it's almost like we're not in the same business. We make much smaller quantities and our targets are much different companies. ⁓ Our targets are the brand owners, especially if they've got a brand ⁓ that's got something special about it. Maybe the environment is their specialty, but it's brands with kind of a special feature about them. ⁓maybe it makes them even a premium brand. Those are the folks that interest us, especially if they're concerned about their environmental footprint. ⁓ So the folks that would compete with us for that kind of business, ⁓ well, almost by definition, they're all larger than us, but they're not huge by any means, ⁓ and they're all over the world. depending upon the raw materials that they use. For instance, I imagine ⁓ Apple ⁓ whoever is doing the packaging for Apple is undoubtedly in China where the manufacturing is taking place and is undoubtedly a very large company because Apple demands a lot of packages. ⁓Personal plug, we actually do manufacture packaging for Apple products, more through the back door. ⁓ We manufacture packaging for iPhones that are resold, refurbished and then resold through Amazon. So in a way, we're creating packaging for Apple products too, but I think Apple would snicker at the idea that we're in the same business that they're in.

Matt Gregory (23:21)⁓ I don't know.

Paul Tasner (23:23) But yeah, think most of our competition, so to speak, is relatively small to medium-sized companies. And some of them are our partners, I mean, we rely on companies in our category to be our partners. They have different customers than us. And we don't, what's the word? We don't swipe each other's customers, but they pretty much do what we hope to create. so why should we reinvent the wheel? They're very good at it.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (24:07) Right, mean, you know, in business that's sort of mission driven, there's the twin goals, I guess, of you're trying to do business, you're trying to make a profit, but you're trying to move towards a world where it's much more common that just much more of the packaging is made in this way. And so I guess... maybe a lot, some of your decisions are less motivated by the bottom line and more motivated by like how do we become a part of this ecosystem, pun intended. Is that the case? Do you find more cooperation than you maybe would if you were just a cigar smoking CEO? CEO.

Paul Tasner (25:06) ⁓ I know what you're driving but ⁓ I don't want to disappoint you, but I don't think so. mean, much to my own disappointment too, ⁓ I'm still sad to say that it's still the rare company that really wants to embrace being more sustainable.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (25:16) okay, yeah, yeah.

Paul Tasner (25:35) ⁓ I mean, really wants to embrace it. There's thousands of them out there doing what's been, you know, now called for many years greenwashing. I mean, you'd think half the companies you see advertised on television are so concerned about the environment, but you put a package in front of them that's a penny more than what they're spending on their package and it's sorry, come back later when your price is lower.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (25:55) Totally.

Paul Tasner (26:05) So, but like I said, now we have the wind at our back now in many ways with these new EPR legislation and California being essentially like the fifth largest economy in the world. If you want to do business in California without paying huge penalties, you better shape up your packaging or it's going to be very costly.

Matt Gregory (26:06) Yeah. So I think

Paul Tasner (26:32) and no one's going to walk business in California.

Matt Gregory (26:35) So Paul, I want to switch ⁓ gears a little bit to talk about your personal path and what it's felt like to be Paul Tasner.

Paul Tasner (26:35) yeah, it's all about the numbers, right?

Matt Gregory (26:50) you know, working initially like let's talk about your time. You worked at a big company Clorox, ⁓ you know, and what was that like? What was that experience like for you?

Paul Tasner (27:00) Well, sure. ⁓ I was there 15 years. ⁓ And at first it was extremely exciting. I'd never worked for a large company before. I don't think anyone in my family ever, know, blue collar immigrant family from Eastern Europe. ⁓ I don't think anyone worked. I'm sure nobody did. mean, mine was the first generation to go to college. ⁓ So no one in the family, immediate or extended family ever worked in that kind of corporate setting. So that was kind of exciting. I really didn't know what to expect. I actually, ⁓ keep the snickers down to a minimum, please guys, but I actually harbored ideas of rising through the ranks. ⁓ and becoming the CEO of the company someday. I mean, I wasn't obsessed with it, but I thought sky's the limit. Boy, was I wrong. ⁓ I guess sky is the sky is the limit. If you're willing to do what it takes to get to the sky. But I, I found out I didn't have what it took to get to that sky box. And, and that, that was not. my bad, that was my good. ⁓ I thought the folks that I saw twisting themselves out of shape, know, ethically, morally, physically, to get that next rung in the ladder, I just could never identify with that. That just seemed like a horrible way to live. So I figured that out probably about five years into my time there. And then the next five years, think it was maybe what we'd call my plateau years. I reached a pretty good middle management position. I had a team of folks that worked for me that I really adored. They were just great folks. we were responsible for the outsourcing that the company did. we had kind of a niche at the company. No one else admired us because that wasn't the path to glory. You know, that was kind of the path to what's the word?

Patrick Dyer Wolf (29:33) stability

Paul Tasner (29:34) No, not even stability. was just like you were just kind of lost in the shuffle if you were doing what we did. just wasn't seen as a critical path to excellence in the company. Certainly not in the manufacturing side of the business. The truth of the matter is we had more fun at our jobs than the folks that were on the critical path. They worked in Clorox plants and You know, they all reported to several other people and had pressures galore on them. And we worked with outsiders, know, people that were mostly entrepreneurs who started their own businesses and were doing this subcontract work for Clorox. They were fascinating people. I think more than any group of folks, I probably learned as much from them about, ⁓ you know, the world that I was in and the world that I've been in. ⁓ They were fascinating people. And ⁓ so I think the joke was on everyone else. had, we have really plum assignments as far as we were concerned. So I kept at that for, you know, the next five years or more. ⁓ And then the last five years, you know, we're kind of rocky because things started to change. got a new boss at the company toward the end of my tenure and he just did not like me. He. ⁓ When he joined the company, I already had 12 years under my belt or something and all he heard about was how well I did my job and how well liked I was and that he could not stand that. He could not stand having anyone upend him. So he made life miserable for me. I'm really... ⁓

Matt Gregory (31:20) You Ugh.

Paul Tasner (31:29) I really enjoy telling this story. ⁓ I had a bit of an ace in the hole. I had a dear friend at the company who sat on a committee with this guy. ⁓ And my friend would tell me, Paul, this guy really has it in for you. He said, really. He doesn't even try to hide it. ⁓ So I said, yeah, I'm beginning to see that. And he said, but I got some news for you. don't do anything rash because he will do just about anything to get rid of you. And by just about anything, he meant pay you to get lost. mean, know, Clorox wasn't notorious for hiring assassins or anything like that. their way of getting rid of you was to, you know, just give you a big severance. So I said, really? He said, yeah, just hang in there. Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (32:16). I'm That seems, seems preferable.

Paul Tasner (32:25) And so I did, I hung in there, it was humiliating. I kept getting moved to smaller and smaller offices, you know, in the corporate world, the size of your office is everything, right? ⁓ And I think I ended up in like a broom closet or something, but I hung in there and they kept making me offers ⁓ to, you know, take early retirement or something. you know, I respectfully declined and Eventually the offer got so damn good. I just had to say yes because I'd already been making my plans for my exit. So I was ready to go and I got almost a year's worth of severance. I mean a year's worth of severance. mean whoever, I know. I mean that's like CEO style severance or something. ⁓

Matt Gregory (33:12) That's amazing. They really hated you. must, they really wanted to get rid of you.

Paul Tasner (33:20) He did. You know what? I don't think he lasted much longer himself, to be honest with you.

Matt Gregory (33:25) Wait, so I'm curious, so Paul, when you first got to Clorox, you had this, your eyes on the prize of like this, you know, maybe someday I could be CEO. I'm wondering like how your vision shifted over the course of your time at Clorox and like by the time you left, what was your vision?

Paul Tasner (33:35) Yeah. Yeah.  good. Well, I realized, mean, I think I touched on it, Matt. I realized I didn't have what it took to rise to the top. It just took a personality that I didn't have, that I didn't even respect. you know, then my focus was more on personal fulfillment, I think, whether that was working, ⁓ you know, for a smaller company, like where you and I met years ago, or whether it turned out to be working for my

Matt Gregory (33:59) Yeah, yeah.

Paul Tasner (34:16) you know, myself, you know, creating something entrepreneurial, which I did eventually do. That wasn't my that wasn't my first intent. That was still a little too scary for me. ⁓ But ⁓ yeah, the focus was more on it was a healthier focus. I think it was more on personal fulfillment, you know, working working with folks that I respected and enjoying enjoying the work and, you know, finding, you know, finding a

Matt Gregory (34:22) Mm-hmm.

Paul Tasner (34:46) a niche that I enjoyed. you know, I think I found a bit of that where we worked, Matt.

Matt Gregory (34:53) Yeah. I'm curious, Paul, so you talk about kind of being truer to yourself, truer to, you know, that maybe working at some smaller companies Method is was, you know, as a brand is very environmentally oriented. was was that always a big priority for you? Did Method kind of introduce you to that? When did your commitment to environmentally focused stuff start to take hold?

Paul Tasner (35:27) ⁓ I would give Method credit for that. I mean, I wasn't really focused on environmental issues. I went to Method because it, it was like, ⁓ it was like the collection of people that hated working at Clorox. I think I counted at one time that there were, well, there weren't many consumer packaged goods companies in the Bay area. So you didn't have that many options if you were going to jump ship somewhere.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (35:45) misfits.

Paul Tasner (35:55). But I think at one time I counted like 28 Clorox refugees at Method. And I think we all kind of enjoyed that status too. But honestly, I would have gone to Method if they had developed the world's best hot dog. I mean, it didn't matter that they were in the environment. Well, it did matter. mean, I was proud of my association with them. They were, you know, they were. They were doing good things and good for the planet and elsewhere. ⁓ But at first, what drew me there was that it was a small company with a lot of my former colleagues and who were enjoying themselves enormously. And the fact that they were environmentally conscious as they were was just icing on the cake. But then I got bitten by the bug.

Matt Gregory (36:46) Yeah, but then you got bitten. You got bitten, man. I'm sorry. I don't mean to cut you off, but I know that like in 2008, you started the San Francisco Bay Area Green Supply Chain Forum. I, you you were, you were, you are, you were, you became a leader in this sort of green, you know, business, green entrepreneurship space, especially around packaging. And so I'm wondering, that's a big

Paul Tasner (37:00) Yeah.

Matt Gregory (37:14) big leap so you really got bitten.

Paul Tasner (37:17) I did, I did get bitten. It felt really good to be working for a company that had those, I mean, they weren't perfect. mean, they still put most of their products inside plastic containers, but they did the best they could around recycling and reuse, et cetera. I mean, it was very heartwarming while I was at Method that Clorox came out with a line of environmentally friendly products, but it was the ultimate in greenwashing. They gave it a green name and maybe changed a few ingredients, but it was the ultimate in greenwashing. it was pretty amusing to those of at Method. knew they were... We had been copied, which is flattering, ⁓ and copied by a real big player in the space, too. ⁓

Matt Gregory (38:11) Yeah. Yeah, after you show them that it's safe to do it and they can do it and make money, they're like, all right, guys, let's go. Let's do it.

Paul Tasner (38:20) Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (38:24) Right.

Matt Gregory (38:26) So then after Method, you consulted at a couple different companies, and you've referred to it already, but Paul and I met at Two Degrees Food, where I ran the operations team. at Two Degrees, I thought, organized themselves in a really cool way, where ⁓ the company was bootstrapped. It didn't have a huge amount of money. And so all of the functional leaders like myself were kind of paired with industry experts, people that had been in the industry a long time that we could never afford to like have on our full-time team. And so I really had this amazing opportunity to kind of learn from Paul and just like sponge, you know, try to learn as much as I could about running operations ⁓ from him, which was a really cool experience. What drew you to like working with startups? I know, you left Method and you were kind of looking around for your next thing. What was that phase like? And were you thinking at that point, hey, I might want to start something here.

Paul Tasner (39:39) No, I wasn't thinking, no, I wasn't thinking of wanting to start something myself, but I really liked the idea of a small company that needed a ⁓ sort of operations generalist like myself, know, someone who was familiar with packaging, procurement, logistics. And, and as you said, you know, maybe couldn't, maybe couldn't afford to have a whole team of people like that, but Maybe they could afford to have one person like that. So, you know, that was interesting and enticing to me.

Matt Gregory (40:18) And then, I mean, from that phase, you know, you were 66 years old, you started Pulpworks. Can you kind of take us through that decision to start Pulpworks?

Paul Tasner (40:34) Yes, yes. The. ⁓ Well, I seized on the idea of ⁓ packaging made from ⁓ waste ⁓ or molded fiber packaging. ⁓ And that fiber could be paper, corrugated agricultural fiber, which is primarily what we use in our business. We use sugar cane fiber. ⁓molding that fiber into packaging creates some really interesting packaging. I guess the granddaddy of all examples and not very interesting one is an egg carton that's molded waste paper fiber. ⁓ So that's sort of the, you know, the oldest ⁓ packaging of that type around still. ⁓ But, you know, as we talked about earlier, the iPhone is in molded fiber packaging.⁓ happens to also be sugar cane packaging ⁓ and countless other products are as well. ⁓ I like the idea of taking waste and turning it into a package instead of just whatever you do with waste, know, burn it, bury it, whatever. mean, here, you know, it kept its value going. So I really like that idea. ⁓I had a business acquaintance, a friend from my time at Method, who ⁓ he kind of ran Method's business in the Far East. ⁓ I'd say he was involved in sales, marketing, ⁓ operations. He wore a whole bunch of hats and ⁓ he was a British guy, but he was based in Hong Kong and he was a really ⁓ interesting and lively character and a bit of an entrepreneur himself. Well, actually ⁓ quite a bit of an entrepreneur because he started his own business. ⁓ And the business he started was what I just described to you. making packaging out of waste. ⁓ he used paper waste to make his packaging. And he had a business partner in maybe Shanghai or Ningbo, I think. He had a business partner. They had a plant, you know, a small modest plant, but they cranked out packaging of this sort. And ⁓ he said, he said, listen, ⁓ you know, most of our sales are here in Asia. said, you're, you're free and easy. Now would you consider representing our business in North America? And that sounded interesting to me, but, ⁓ not entirely, but it did sound interesting. It was a way to get into that business. And, ⁓ I, I got back in touch with him I said, I thought about it. I don't think it's really for me, but I have an alternate suggestion that you may find interesting. I said, what if I start a business like yours here in North America, except that I don't do manufacturing, you do my manufacturing for me there in China and ship it back to North America. And he said, basically that's kind of what I was asking you to do. So he said, yeah, that's.

Matt Gregory (44:31) You

Patrick Dyer Wolf (44:31) Well, great.

Paul Tasner (44:32) That's except, you I wouldn't work for him in this. The difference was I wouldn't work for him. I'd be working for myself. So there I had it. I had an outsourced manufacturer in Asia, a guy that I liked and respected and an opportunity to create that kind of packaging in North America, you know. And that's how we started. And then he introduced me to someone else who used different raw materials than he used. ⁓ And they became my partner also. ⁓ In fact, ⁓ he dismantled his business many years ago, and I found other sources for it. But the partners that he introduced me to are

Matt Gregory (45:05) cool.

Paul Tasner (45:28) are still my partners today, 15 years later. ⁓ So he did me an enormous service and I'll always be grateful to him for doing that. It's made a huge difference in my life. ⁓ in fact, our conversation here is a timely one because that partnership that I've had for 15 years with two particular companies in China, has essentially come to an end because of Mr. Trump. Because the tariff now on Chinese molded fiber products shipped into North America, shipped into the US is, are you ready? 540 % tariff. Not 25 or 40, 540%. It's essentially saying, you know, that's the end of your business.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (46:17) Thank

Paul Tasner (46:26) So ⁓ we, we being myself and my partner's son, Andy, we've had to scurry to find a replacement. My partners are optimists. They think it's, you know, somehow Trump and Xi Jinping will sit down and everything will go back to the way it was. I don't know if that's ever going to happen. And the way it was, was with tariffs of 50%. So that's not exciting to me either. ⁓

Matt Gregory (46:59) Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (47:00) Do you have leads for alternatives and where are they? If so...

Paul Tasner (47:04) We have more than leads. We've been in deep discussions with two particular companies. ⁓ And ⁓ they are both in Thailand. ⁓ And the beauty of that is that the sugarcane waste that we use in China, it all came from Thailand. Our partners in China imported the sugarcane waste from Thailand.

Matt Gregory (47:25) Mm-hmm. for talent.

Paul Tasner (47:32) because they had a deeper sugar cane industry than South China, apparently. Whatever, I'm sure many reasons why, but that's where our raw materials were sourced in Thailand. Now we're sitting right on top of it. So far, these look like two wonderful companies. They've been really...

Patrick Dyer Wolf (47:51) There you go.

Paul Tasner (47:58) They're probably pretty busy these days with all of the refugees from 540 % tariffs. But they've been really marvelous to us and they've quoted on some projects for us. And I think we're off to a decent start. So that was a pretty dark day when the 540 % tariffs were announced. But we pushed through and thanks mostly or almost entirely to my son, we've been able to kind of

Matt Gregory (48:06) Yeah.

Paul Tasner (48:29) Regain our footing with two good partners and fingers crossed, you know, ride off into the sunset with them.

Matt Gregory (48:39) So I think there's a dangerous, ⁓ like we could end up talking about Trump for the rest of the show and I don't want to get sucked into that. ⁓ So, but I ⁓ do want to come back a little bit to your decision to start Pulpworks. ⁓ And like you, it seems like you had a lot of conviction around the idea and you know, I'm curious like how your family responded, like.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (48:49) All roads.

Matt Gregory (49:08) what your kids thought, what Barb thought when you decided to jump into this.

Paul Tasner (49:15) Um, everyone, everyone was supportive. Everyone, everyone. I mean, my kids, my, my grandkids, everyone was very proud of what I was doing. And, uh, Barb was a great cheerleader. Um, uh, I, I had, I had a lot of support. I didn't have to fight any oncoming winds or anything like that. I just had to. you know, hopefully create something successful. And I was really fortunate as far as, you know, being nurtured by my family to, you know, help me become successful at it.

Matt Gregory (50:00) So I'm curious, like, when you look back at starting this business, and you've become kind of a thought leader in this idea of starting a business later in life. Like, you did a TED talk about it. What advantages do you think you had starting your business at 66 versus in your 20s?

Paul Tasner (50:19) ⁓Well, as I said at the end of my TED talk, people my age bring whatever they were doing before they started their business. They bring all that experience to their business. In some cases, it's not real applicable or transferable.

Matt Gregory (50:35) Mm-hmm.

Paul Tasner (50:41) But in other cases, like in mine, most of what I did was applicable and transferable. ⁓ So I brought all that to my business, 40 years of that to my business. That had to help. I mean, it didn't prepare me for entrepreneurship and all the things that come with that. ⁓ And I don't wanna minimize that at all, because that's...

Matt Gregory (50:48) Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Tasner (51:10) That's a big difference from working for somebody. But in terms of the nuts and bolts of the industry and all of that, I brought all of that with me.

Matt Gregory (51:20) Mm-hmm.

Paul Tasner (51:27) You know, was extremely valuable to do it when I did it. I wouldn't have been able to fall back on all of that experience. you may recall Matt, that I, that I had a partner in the early days, ⁓ Elena. and, ⁓ we went out looking for investors because we wanted to develop something brick and mortar. wanted to build our own facility. and, ⁓ we met with angel investor groups all over the Bay area and beyond and Tahoe and Northern California. And, ⁓ we usually got a chance to sit down in front of them, which I guess is flattering in a way, cause they only pick a handful of people that they want to, you know, give that opportunity to, but we never got past the sitting down in front of them. They never, they never really showed any interest. ⁓ And what I often heard back was that I was too old, that they didn't want to invest in somebody my age, that it was a young man's game, et cetera, et cetera. I'm sure that was true for many, if not all of them. But they also, if I'm honest with myself, they also had other wonderful opportunities for investment. I mean, they were in the Bay Area. They had all of Silicon Valley at their doorstep. So they could invest in the next Google or you name it. ⁓ Why invest in a company that's going to make packaging out of waste when you can invest in the next QuickBooks or something? we really were competing in a strange arena for getting people's money. was tough. But once you're in the business, and I can say this is still true today, no one, no customer, no supplier has ever brought up the subject of age. in certainly not in a critical way. I mean, perhaps in a flattering way or something, but even then pretty, pretty rarely. No one has ever said, I don't know if I want to do business with you. You're so old or, you know, can I count on you for five years of supply?

Matt Gregory (54:02) All right, well, in case you're wondering, there's been some costume changes and facial hair growth here that the YouTube audience knows about. had some technical difficulties And actually today, we're in the middle of the blizzard of 2026 here. So Pat is...

Patrick Dyer Wolf (54:04) We're back. I just wanted to be authentic to what I was just doing before we got on. And also I wanted to highlight our regional, fierce regional rivalry that we have going on.

Paul Tasner (54:31) Hahaha

Matt Gregory (54:31) Yeah.

 Yeah. Well, I did see the Celtics clean up the Lakers last night. So I'm feeling.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (54:37) Well that's good and you know the Knicks eeked it out against the Bulls which is less of a thing but...

Matt Gregory (54:42) Yeah, well, you know, ⁓ it's an interesting season and the Knicks are crushing it. So I'm excited. Yeah. See you there.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (54:49) We'll see you the playoffs. See you in the playoffs. Also, I think we're cultivating this thing now here. Do you ever listen to the interview, the New York Times thing, where they come back a few days later? That's what we're doing.

Matt Gregory (54:57) Yes. Yeah. I think that there's a lesson in here around resilience, around stick-to-it-iveness that I see you as a three-dimensional friend of mine, not a lesson, but I think that ⁓ there's something in that in sort of what I've learned from you in my career just around

Paul Tasner (55:17) Right.

Matt Gregory (55:27) you know, taking the challenge that's ahead of you and facing it and getting through it. And I have no doubt that you will continue to get through it with Pulpworks and with everything else that's thrown your way. And I guess maybe to wrap up, I'd love if you could share. Yeah, of course. Well, I'd love to hear, you know, for people that are listening,

Paul Tasner (55:48) By the way, thanks for that, Matt. That was lovely.

Matt Gregory (55:57) like that and are interested in learning more about pulp works. Like where's the best way for them to learn about it or to connect with you?

Paul Tasner (56:05) maybe take a peek at our website and see the kind of work we do. think there's a contact page at the end, you know, ⁓ with an email, info at pulpworksinc.com. So, Pulpworks Inc. ⁓ But yeah, check out our website, see the kind of work we do. We primarily use sugar cane as our raw material, sugar cane waste, I should say. ⁓ But we do use a few other agricultural waste products for raw materials. And we have a lot of examples of the kind of work we do in different industries that we've served. So, yeah, I'd say send them to our website.

Matt Gregory (56:50) Awesome. thank you so much for taking the time with us on two days to share your journey and a bit about, you know, especially recently you're building Pulp works. ⁓ And yeah, it's been really wonderful to connect with you this way.

Paul Tasner (57:08) Me too, it's been great guys. You've been wonderful hosts and interviewers and got me to talk about things that I hope will be meaningful to three or four people in your audience. Yeah, excuse me.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (57:24) that as a baseline. ⁓

Matt Gregory (57:24) I'm sure. I'm sure. That is our entire audience, so I'm sure.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (57:30) It's been great to me and I definitely have products from your earlier career, Clorox, Method, and now I just need to get more Pulpworks products.

Paul Tasner (57:36) Right, right.  And I need to honor you ⁓ during your next appearance in New York City or nearby. ⁓ Yeah, get on that. ⁓ So ⁓ good luck. Good luck. Good luck with the series, guys.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (57:46) Yeah, well we gotta have one.

Matt Gregory (57:50) Get on that pad. All right, Paul. Thank you so much.

Matt Gregory (58:01) it. It's been fun because I feel like every conversation we have reminds me of somebody else who I think could be an interesting conversation. ⁓ But yeah, think Paul's story,

Patrick Dyer Wolf (58:10)Yeah.

Matt Gregory (58:14) I feel like, you know, there are lots of ups and downs and you know, it takes a lot of resilience to, to start a business and to keep it going. You know, a lot of the times in the type of business that I do or that I've been involved with historically, like they're founders that, you know, get a lot of outside. venture capital money, and then there's like an expectation that you like build the company really quickly and then sell it. And I think the type of company that Paul is running ⁓ is inherently a lot more connected to his life And and and then you think about like over the course of a lifetime all the stuff that you deal with you know has recently lost his spouse and you know, it just like there's just a lot that you have to get through

Patrick Dyer Wolf (59:03) Yeah, I mean, I just, love this, you know, we've definitely touched on this in the conversation, but just love the story of him starting it as like a third act in his career and just like, now it's been going for 15 years and they're still, like they're not stopping even in the face of all this stuff that's going on.

Matt Gregory (59:14) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (59:23) I was gonna say before when you were talking about his personal journey, like I think it was interesting to me from that perspective paired with how just he's a two man company, him and his son, so plugged into all these global factors. Like just everything is intertwined, even if you're a tiny business and everything affects everything else and like never has that been more apparent or true, I think.

Matt Gregory (59:34) Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really well said. And I think that's just especially true of supply chain type and manufacturing type jobs. They're connected to everything. They're influenced by everything. So.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:00:05) Right, and you know, this is to say nothing of like, the people who work for that company in China, the people who work for that company in Thailand, like, how are they feeling about all this? Like, it must be crazy, you know?

Matt Gregory (1:00:16) Yeah, it is. Yeah. I mean, that's another whole episode. But yeah. Well, great conversation. And ⁓ I will talk to you soon, my friend.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:00:18) Yeah. Matt, always a pleasure. Good luck in the Blizzard.

Matt Gregory (1:00:33) Thank you, you too.