Matt Gregory (00:01): Good morning, Pat. How you doing?

Patrick Dyer Wolf (00:03): Yeah, hey, good morning. How are you doing,

Matt Gregory (00:06): I'm good. I'm having a delicious cup of coffee.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (00:11): Cheers.

Matt Gregory (00:12): What's your, do you, what's your coffee routine?

Patrick Dyer Wolf (00:17): We have, you know, it's not a special coffee maker but it's like kind of a mid-century blue which makes

Matt Gregory (00:24): Mm-hmm.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (00:25): it really pop in the kitchen and the coffee is really nothing special. It's from Aldi.

Matt Gregory (00:29): you

Patrick Dyer Wolf (00:30): But I do love coffee and I love nice coffee but it's, you know, it's like a third of the price so what are you gonna do?

Matt Gregory (00:35): Yeah. Yeah, I love coffee too. I'm also genetically predisposed to being extremely sensitive to caffeine. So I

Patrick Dyer Wolf (00:46): so you just need like a drop.

Matt Gregory (00:48): have a couple tablespoons full and that that carries me through the day. No, not actually, not actually. I

Patrick Dyer Wolf (00:54): of tablespoons of coffee.

Matt Gregory (01:00): I find that like

Patrick Dyer Wolf (01:02): Because you're tall. That's funny. That's funny.

Matt Gregory (01:04): I know I'm a big guy. I'm a big guy. find that eight, like eight to 12, eight ounces is perfect. 12 ounces

Patrick Dyer Wolf (01:13): Yeah.

Matt Gregory (01:13): is pushing it.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (01:14): Honestly, the not a of people know about the short at Starbucks and say what you will about Starbucks.

Matt Gregory (01:18): Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (01:19): Like the short cup, that cup size is great.

Matt Gregory (01:21): Yeah, I totally agree. And the short is short enough that I can maybe even have two shorts in a day and not turn into a anxiety machine.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (01:33): Yeah, I'm with you. Sometimes you slip a little bit down the slope, but you you try

Matt Gregory (01:37): Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (01:38): not to.

Matt Gregory (01:39): Yeah. But I do want to give a shout out because I love it. There used to be a coffee shop in Brookline where I live called 4A Coffee Roasters. And it was so delicious. And then I think they got tired of running a cafe. So

Patrick Dyer Wolf (02:04): Mm-hmm.

Matt Gregory (02:05): they got rid of the cafe. But just maybe a year ago, the owner of 4A started roasting beans and selling beans off of his website. like, just a basically like a direct to consumer coffee bean company. So that's where I get my beans from. And he sources them from around the world and he roasts them himself and comes in compostable packaging. And it's just an awesome. Like I feel so good about using that service and I love the coffee. And our former guest, Nathan is also a coffee fan, aficionado. We talked about coffee. Yeah. Yes. And

Patrick Dyer Wolf (02:49): Do you guys talk, do you talk about your love, your love for for a coffee? Yeah.

Matt Gregory (02:54): he, he also loves for a coffee and is less caffeine sensitive than me. So it's a fun, it's a fun thing to discuss with him.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (03:04): he can enjoy a tall or maybe even a grande.

Matt Gregory (03:07): Well, his favorite thing to do is when I come over at like 4 PM, he offers me a double shot of espresso. I'm

Patrick Dyer Wolf (03:14): he's European, he's Italian.

Matt Gregory (03:16): like, sure, let's try. And it doesn't usually go well. But yeah, it's a bad idea.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (03:20): Yeah, I can't after after 2 p.m. Is no yeah

Matt Gregory (03:25): Well, I'm excited about our conversation today.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (03:29): Me too.

Matt Gregory (03:30): We've got Lynn Vidler. coming on who's the interim provost at the University of Colorado Colorado Springs and I'll let Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (03:39): You know what I meant to, I'm so sorry, I meant to Google the word provost. Can we do that?

Matt Gregory (03:44): Well, think we, I think we could. I also just would be interested in Lynn's explanation of what, what a provost is. Cause, I'm

Patrick Dyer Wolf (03:53): Yeah.

Matt Gregory (03:53): sure they would be able to give us a better, a better definition. I feel like these, these, these podcast episodes are just great learning opportunities for us. You know, keep on learning into your, into your forties.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (04:06): Yeah, we that's right. Yeah, and beyond

Matt Gregory (04:12): I love it.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (04:12): to infinity.

Matt Gregory (04:14): in infinity. So Lynn is a great human being and I'm excited to have them on the show. And yeah, we'll we'll be back in a second. We'll give Lynn a chance to introduce themselves and we'll go from there.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (04:29): Yeah, did you know before we go in that Lynn was a professional ballet dancer?

Matt Gregory (04:36): I, you know what, think I did know that. Um, yeah, no, could. Their path

Patrick Dyer Wolf (04:41): thought I was gonna get you, but you did, no, okay.

Matt Gregory (04:43): has gone in a lot of directions and I'm excited to chat.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (04:51): Me too. Let's do it. Okay.

Matt Gregory (04:55): Hey, Lynn, it's awesome to have you here. So we've got Lynn Vidler, who I have had the pleasure of getting to know through Brown University's ACT coaching program. We're both learning to be leadership coaches through that program. And Lynn is the, I believe your title is interim provost at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs. And so it's great to have you here, not intro.

Lynn Vidler (05:21): not interim. Thank you very much. Yeah, I'm just the provost now. But

Matt Gregory (05:26): Just provost.

Lynn Vidler (05:27): yes, it's so great to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Matt Gregory (05:33): Yeah, for sure. Would you mind giving our listeners just a chance to get to know you? How would you like to be known to our listeners?

Lynn Vidler (05:41): Sure, well, like I said, thanks again for having me. My name is Lynn and I go by they them pronouns. I'm the provost, which is a lot of people always ask like what exactly is a provost and what that means. It's kind of like being the chief academic officer of a university. So I report directly to the chancellor and I oversee the entire academic part of the mission of the university. So all the colleges and schools, the research mission, the library, and then other vice chancellors do like, you know, they're like the CFO or the chief of staff or legal, you know, like that kind of thing. Yeah, so that's, that's what I do in my day job.

Matt Gregory (06:31): Okay. Well,

Patrick Dyer Wolf (06:31): you

Matt Gregory (06:33): we all know that's just part of the part of the equation. So what else can you tell us a bit more about yourself and maybe where you grew up and a little bit about your past?

Lynn Vidler (06:44): Sure. I'm, if you want the the whole kind of laundry list of things that might describe me, I would describe myself as a transgender, non-binary, bisexual, Hispanic Jew. It's like a lot of boxes,

Patrick Dyer Wolf (07:06): He he.

Lynn Vidler (07:07): I guess, that I check. All of those things have been a big part of my life. I grew up in California, but I really consider myself more of a New Yorker. I did my undergrad at New York University, and I taught at West Point for 12 years as a civilian professor, which is in the Hudson Valley of New York. I also lived in Boston for... for three years in Arlington, actually, near Cambridge while my ex was in law school. And I did my graduate work in California at UC Irvine in Spanish literature. So that's my academic field of expertise. My research is in 17th century Spanish drama.

Matt Gregory (08:07): Wow.

Lynn Vidler (08:08): If you might think about that as kind of like theater, sort of contemporary with Shakespeare a little bit later, but

Matt Gregory (08:14): Okay.

Lynn Vidler (08:15): in Spain as opposed to, you know, England. And I also have veered into research on leadership development. And that interest arose, you know, during my time at West Point, of course, because they're Mission is developing leaders of character for the US Army and the nation.

Matt Gregory (08:41): I think you've got a really cool path and one that seems like it's very connected to pursuing your interests and following them through in different ways. Is that right?

Lynn Vidler (08:58): That is, yes, that is so true. And I can say a little bit more about that because my first career actually was as a professional ballet dancer.

Matt Gregory (09:07): Wow.

Lynn Vidler (09:07): I danced with the California Ballet.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (09:09): Obviously.

Lynn Vidler (09:10): Obviously, I mean, like, look at me. Obviously, it's very clear. So I danced with the California Ballet Company in San Diego, California. I started, I studied from four years old. So my first job was really as a ballet. instructor and then I was a member of the company there. But I decided I preferred eating to not eating. If that makes sense. You know, I thought that was maybe a better path.

Matt Gregory (09:37): Sure, Our food's good.

Lynn Vidler (09:41): And so I went back to school. And so the theater piece of my research really is a way of connecting, you know, my love of performance, live performance, and scholarly pursuits. And so I think It might be, I might be a little bit unusual in that, you know, I, studied literature, but I don't really consider myself really a bookworm. more of like a performance worm, if that's a

Matt Gregory (10:12): Mm.

Lynn Vidler (10:12): thing. Um, and so kind of sort of connecting those, those two passions together. And then, you know, so I went all through grad school and then my job at West Point was so interesting. Uh, I mean, it's interesting anyway, but. It also happened just after 9-11. So when 9-11 happened, I think I interviewed there like maybe three or four months later and got that job and then became really interested in the leadership development piece because I had such, you know, bad leadership experiences, you know, in ballet, right? And at home too, which is another part of the story. But it... It was amazing to realize that there was a paradigm of leader development, that you could learn how to engage a group of people from all over the country, diverse

Matt Gregory (11:15): Mm-hmm.

Lynn Vidler (11:16): backgrounds to work together to accomplish a mission that's too difficult to do alone and where you might die and where you might kill people, right? And that was really amazing to me and that it could be done in a positive rather than an abusive toxic way.

Matt Gregory (11:38): Sure. Is there something to connect sort of your interest in performance and leadership?

Lynn Vidler (11:51): Well, yeah, I I think it started with the connection between performance and teaching,

Matt Gregory (11:56): Mm-hmm.

Lynn Vidler (11:57): right? That teaching in and of itself is a bit of a performance. You're preparing a new performance every day

Matt Gregory (12:04): Mm-hmm.

Lynn Vidler (12:05): in front of a classroom and figuring out how to engage an audience through something that you love and maybe they don't really love. Maybe they're taking Spanish class for a... graduation requirement or whatever, you know what mean? And so there's certainly that, but it's also, you know, you're also modeling what a positive group environment could look like. And that was really important to me. I mean, you know, you can get, as a leader, can get outcomes either way, right? If you're toxic or positive, right? You can still produce a professional ballet dancer and you can still produce a Spanish speaker, right? You could still produce a college professor. But you damage the person, like you risk damaging the person, right? And then that scales up. That's the thing about leadership is that that development and those engagements scale up. And so if you learn in a toxic environment, you then become a professor that creates toxic environments, right? If you create a positive environment, you create positivity. And you know, that's not 100 % always true, but you're, you have a better chance of scaling up positivity in the world, right?

Matt Gregory (13:43): Yeah.

Lynn Vidler (13:45): And I truly believe that you can also get good results from a positive, authentic, engaging, know, empathetic leadership style or learning.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (14:05): I've been, I've seen a couple of interviews that you had done from a few years ago. I think a couple of them were like pandemic era.

Lynn Vidler (14:15): Hmm.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (14:17): And it's been great to learn about who you are from that and just talking to you now. And I just kind of like have so many questions for you that I don't really know where to start. I like, just,

Lynn Vidler (14:28): Just pick a door!

Patrick Dyer Wolf (14:29): yeah. I mean, just even geographically in the places you've been, it's like such a well-rounded past. Like you grew up in California, you've to New York and Boston, but you spend time in South Dakota as well, is that right?

Lynn Vidler (14:49): Yeah, and Spain and Portugal. Yeah. Travel, I travel a

Patrick Dyer Wolf (14:51): Spain, Portugal, Colorado Springs.

Lynn Vidler (14:56): lot with, with students, you know, taking them to, cause I taught Spanish and Portuguese, right? So Spanish and Portuguese speaking countries, Brazil, Chile, Spain, all that kind yeah. So I've been a lot of places for sure.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (15:11): Do you ever have difficulty with Spanish and Portuguese?

Lynn Vidler (15:14): Hahaha

Patrick Dyer Wolf (15:15): the buckets in your brain get confused?

Lynn Vidler (15:17): You know, it's funny, because I spent so much time learning Spanish before I started learning Portuguese, I didn't start learning Portuguese until graduate school. And it was kind of a requirement, but it ended up being how I got the job at West Point because they were looking for a Spanish professor who could also do Portuguese, right? So they are very similar, but they're also really different. mean, I think they're more similar on paper than they sound very different. For sure, I don't think I really get them confused probably because my Spanish was pretty solid before I started the Portuguese. But what happens is the vocabulary is, I'm not sure really the percentage. I wanna say like 60 to 70 % similar word stock and then occasionally the word is completely different in one language or the other. if you try to... you know, throw the Spanish word in there and it's not right. Like, you know, the Portuguese are not very happy about that. Brazilians don't

Patrick Dyer Wolf (16:21): yeah.

Lynn Vidler (16:22): get what the Portuguese get. A little, yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (16:25): I have an adjacent experience where I studied Italian and I studied abroad in Bologna. I heard that you studied in Madrid

Lynn Vidler (16:33): Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (16:34): and now I'm trying to learn Spanish, which is much more useful in everyday life. But I'm having a little bit of trouble, so I just wondered if you... Maybe my Italian isn't quite as solid as your Spanish was. But

Lynn Vidler (16:45): Maybe, maybe that's possible.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (16:48): so like you have all these experiences in all these different places and different roles and I feel like that's a... rare, know, if not unique like a rare person in our you know country or societies had so many different types of experiences in different places and You were speaking about how you can go about leadership two ways to get you know from outwardly the same result But Do you feel like having been in contact with so many different types of people in different places has given you any sort of insight or guidance about why you think it's more worth it to sort of build rather than to like coerce in

Lynn Vidler (17:46): Hmm.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (17:47): order to lead or to teach?

Lynn Vidler (17:48): I always felt, you know, describing my job at West Point that I was, my first job wasn't actually language proficiency, it was intercultural competence, right? And regional expertise. So you're trying to prepare future officers who are not only gonna work with troops from around the country. but also around the world, right? Because you have to be able to work with allies to work together to win wars. so I sometimes would bottom line that by saying, you know, I'm trying to teach people not to get deployed and burn Korans. Like that was sort of the timeframe that we were talking about, right? And when you, you know, oddly I think that the biggest culture shock I experienced was from New York to South Dakota. It wasn't Chile or Brazil or anything like that. But all of those experiences really teach you is that context matters and that some of that context is literally geological, topographical, including just history, right? And that people just see the world in different ways. And it's critical to be able to understand that and to understand where you are. think one of the reasons I kind of consider myself more of a New Yorker than a Californian, I mean, I think if people listened to me and if I had said I'm from New York, they would have said, yeah, you're from New York, right? I never felt comfortable. growing up in Southern California, it was sort of Farrah Fawcett, know, blonde feathered hair time. you know, I just had curly, I was just like a curly hair Jewish person, right? And never really felt like I belonged there. And I remember getting into NYU and my mom was like, you probably should like see New York City before you just. decide to go there, I was like, that's probably a good idea. And got off the plane and it was like, I just instantly understood that that was home and that I felt like I belonged there. I'm not even really sure I can explain it. It's just that there were more people who looked like me, but also just more people who just looked, didn't look the same as each other. Right? And so was comfortable, a comfortable space. You could just sort of walk through. You know, I think in Spain and in Spain and Portugal are both areas, especially Spain, that had a long, you know, Jewish presence on the Iberian Peninsula, longer in Spain than in Portugal. And so, you know, I drop into Madrid and people just assume I'm a Spaniard. I don't think they realize the amount of like semitic heritage that's there. I mean, they do, cognitively, anyway. So as you go from place to place and each place has its own take on life. mean, even just the times of day that you eat meals. in all those places is different. And whether or not you invite people into your home is different. Spain has bidets, we don't have bidets. Like, you know what I mean?

Patrick Dyer Wolf (21:49): I'm

Lynn Vidler (21:51): We're about the food and just all the

Matt Gregory (21:51): major loss on our side.

Lynn Vidler (21:54): things are different. And when I think about the students that I've taught in the three, well, four universities really, I guess five, I don't know, I've taught at a lot of places. Taught in California, taught in Boston, taught in New York, taught in Colorado and in South Dakota. And the student body, like the way they approach homework, I think South Dakotans did more homework than the cadets did. that really... really shows you as a leader that you can't just assume that everyone's like you and that everyone approaches work or life or whatever challenge you're trying to work on and change in leadership is going to approach it like you. And it gives you an empathy and an understanding and a curiosity really of how everyone is thinking about. the challenge that you're working.

Matt Gregory (22:56): Yeah, empathy was the word I was thinking about as you shared that. I think because it sounds like your life, you know, maybe starting out and maybe it's even earlier than this, but starting out in the ballet, seeing what sort of less than optimal leadership looks like, and then having this incredibly, you know, multicultural, diverse, you know, experience. you know, through all your different teaching appointments and the different places that you've lived and traveled, it seems like it's almost like you've built a value system through that life experience. I'm wondering, like as a kid, was that something that you were taught too or was it purely out of seeing what bad leadership looked like and then thinking about how to build good leadership? Like, did you get any of that same value system as a kid or did you learn that all?

Lynn Vidler (23:57): I'm gonna try to say this kindly. Because when you're a kid, you just think that the world is your world, right? It takes a while before you look up and understand that, when I go to my friend's house, things are different than when

Matt Gregory (24:13): Mm-hmm.

Lynn Vidler (24:13): I'm home, right? The rules are different, the food's different, whatever it is.

Matt Gregory (24:17): No.

Lynn Vidler (24:20): So, you know, I think I... I always knew that I didn't really see eye eye with my parents. And I think it took me a while to understand why. you know, it was really important for them for me to be successful. Right. And so it's kind of why I say, Hey, like there's like, can, you can still get good outcomes, you know, from different approaches to leadership and teaching and, and, know, human development. so, you know, on paper, like, I think I'm a pretty successful person. Right. Okay. and, but to be able to kind of. Be my authentic self took a really long time

Matt Gregory (25:24): Mm-hmm.

Lynn Vidler (25:24): because it felt like I had to do things to please people instead of realizing I could just be myself.

Matt Gregory (25:33): Yeah. mean, like, I'm just like blown away by your bravery. you know, jumping into, know, cause I, cause I could imagine another, another life path for you where like, maybe you never left California and you never left the ballet and you were focused on pleasing people. and, and instead, like you've become this incredibly like, I don't know, modern leader. where you're trying to bridge all sorts of divides between different people and trying to be empathetic. I don't know, I'm inspired by who you've become and it's really wonderful to hear your story and see where you've come.

Lynn Vidler (26:19): I appreciate that. think those decisions can be kind of lonely, right? Because a lot of people are focused on stability and belonging and there's some fear of change, right? When you go, you know what? This ballet thing, know, food is probably a good thing. I'm just gonna quit. I quit cold turkey. just went, no, I'm going back to school. And I went three thousand

Patrick Dyer Wolf (27:03): Was that?

Lynn Vidler (27:03): miles across the country and went to school.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (27:07): Do you think that was sort of a spark that taught you that? That you don't, like, I don't have to do anything.

Lynn Vidler (27:11): Maybe, maybe, yeah, maybe, know, it's like that was like that's that first sort of neural pathway that was laid, that you could go, you know what, I'm no drop sling and like cut sling, and I'm going to New York. And so I went to New York and, and, you know, went to grad school did the the higher ed, you know, the college professor path. And then of course, 911 happens, right? And your whole world blows apart, right? And you end up in the middle of the development of the people who are leading people to go do something about it. Okay? So like I was, you know, at West Point the, the night that, you know, Saddam Hussein was, you know, captured and Osama bin Laden was killed. And you you have after you were there a couple of years you had people who had already deployed and who were coming back with PTSD and You know the the whole training, you know training mechanisms were were changing, you know in response to the kinds of combat situations that they were finding themselves in and and and everything that you did was designed to prepare people to lead people to win. Like every context. there was always a kind of, it was sort of a semi-joke but not a joke, right? So if a cadet came unprepared or made a mistake, you you would say, congrats, you just killed 10 people. Do you know what mean? And like it was only half kidding. Right? So it was a very intense environment. so then, but then because as a civilian, I was not allowed to take on the leadership roles that I have now there because you had to be an officer to do it. So that's.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (29:20): What was your role at West Point or maybe it changed over 10?

Lynn Vidler (29:23): So I started as an assistant professor. the faculty ranks for the faculty ranks, generally speaking across the country, you start as an assistant professor, you get promoted to associate professor. Most universities have tenure at that point at the associate professor. West Point didn't have tenure, but they do now, long story. And then full professor, right? That's kind of like the highest faculty rank that you can get. And then I did get promoted into an associate dean role there for international affairs. It was called the International Intellectual Development Division. And it was responsible for all foreign anything, right? So cadets studying abroad, international cadets coming to West Point, our general officers visiting other countries, other foreign officers coming to visit West Point, right? So was kind of like that whole international stuff. But there was nowhere to go after that. You couldn't be the dean, right? And you couldn't be the superintendent that was all officers. You couldn't even be the department head. And so that's why I left. And it was like, was looking for a department chair position and it ended up in South Dakota. And so people thought I was absolutely nuts, right? It was like, you're leaving West Point to go to South Dakota? I'm like, no, no. It's like this, like I could see the path to where I am now, right? And so, yeah, so it was just like, yeah, I'm gonna make this decision. I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna leave that. And then I left to come to Colorado to be dean and now I've been promoted to the provost role. So yeah, maybe that, maybe you're right. Like, you know, kind of laid that, laid that neural pathway and I'm just not afraid anymore to make those kinds of decisions.

Matt Gregory (31:18): Yeah, can you take us back to the way you felt at West Point, you know, deciding to take this South Dakota role, having people question that decision? Like, what did that feel like internally?

Lynn Vidler (31:32): Well, I I knew what I was doing, right? I was actually surprised. I don't know why I was surprised that people, I mean, I understood why my West Point colleagues were disappointed. You know what I mean? Because I had been there for a really long time and, you know, I was doing well there and I loved the job. But, and I also took a significant pay cut. I would say, I don't remember how much it was, a significant pay cut to go to South Dakota. Of course, the cost of living there was way cheaper than in New York. So it ended up being more or less the same. And I also had to call my ex-dad of my kids to say, I needed his permission legally. to actually move the kids farther than whatever it was, a 90 mile radius from the original place of the divorce, you know what mean? I think my parents were very disappointed because they liked to say that I taught at West Point. But well, my wife was super supportive. You know, let's go.

Matt Gregory (32:56): Mm-hmm.

Lynn Vidler (32:57): You know, happy to support and.

Matt Gregory (32:59): That's so helpful when your partner is

Lynn Vidler (33:02): Mmm.

Matt Gregory (33:04): in your camp.

Lynn Vidler (33:05): you can't do it without. in fairness, she is as big of a, she would be an interesting guest as well, honestly.

Matt Gregory (33:15): All right.

Lynn Vidler (33:15): But she is also able to make those kinds of decisions. We are aligned in that.

Matt Gregory (33:24): Yeah, I guess while we're on the topic of partners and that part of life, you shared that you use they, them pronouns.

Lynn Vidler (33:34): Mm-hmm.

Matt Gregory (33:35): How has your understanding of your own identity shaped how you relate to yourself and the world? What's the impact there?

Lynn Vidler (33:44): Yeah, I want to, one of the things I think is so interesting is when you come out and, you know, shift presentation, cut all your hair off. used to have this very long, beautiful curly hair, you know. And you suddenly see and feel deeply the the systems that govern society, right? So now my wife is also trans. She's a trans woman. We came out publicly at the same time, just as we were leaving South Dakota. It was one of the reasons we left South Dakota. But you suddenly experience how the world treats you. differently, right? Like you walked through the world, just like I was saying before, like as a kid, you walk through the world and you just think the world is your world, right? And you, you as, cis male people, I'm, you know, you would walk through the world and you don't think about how people are treating you. If you were to transition, you would suddenly see how people treat women and you just don't think about it on a daily basis, right? So that I think was very eye-opening.

Matt Gregory (35:22): Mm-hmm.

Lynn Vidler (35:25): And then, you know, that they them pronounce it's, you know, it's actually easier for people to flip binary, you know, like, so like if, you know, So for example, to go from using he pronouns to she pronouns for my wife is actually easier for other people to, because you're used to using she, right? People aren't as used to using they them and so people do get tripped up and whatnot. But I was almost 50 when I came out, so it's less upsetting when people screw up, right? Because they're trying and people are

Patrick Dyer Wolf (36:02): Yeah.

Lynn Vidler (36:02): always apologizing or whatever and it's fine. you know, I can see how a younger person would be more, because you're still really developing your identity as a human, you know, that it's more disturbing and upsetting when people are not honoring that. Yeah, I'm not sure if I answered your question.

Matt Gregory (36:32): Yeah, I mean, I think there are lot of ways to go with that question. And I think like, I was just trying to put myself in your shoes a little bit.

Lynn Vidler (36:42): Yeah.

Matt Gregory (36:43): And it's very interesting for me to imagine like having an identity and then, you know, you know, coming out with something and then, you know, being able to see a system. as an individual, like the way you're describing. I mean, that's gotta be very sort of out of body experience.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (37:09): It sort of seems- oops sorry.

Lynn Vidler (37:10): It's wild. I mean, I will say that, you we did come out as we moved. So I applied for this job, you know, using my preferred name. Lynn is not my name, my legal name. And with they them, pronouns, kind of that actually made it a little bit easier, right? Because nobody here knew me before.

Matt Gregory (37:33): Yeah.

Lynn Vidler (37:35): Right. So that's one thing. But I mean, You know, and I've been kind of describing this in terms of other people's, you know, response and engagement, but it's so minimal compared to the total relief that I feel, you know, just being able to like move through space as me, like the real me. It's way worse. Like when you're just trying to, you know, conform to other people's expectations all the time. That's horrible.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (38:09): Yeah, it seems like it must be a I mean, for sure a mixture of mixed emotions and experiences, but like, a freeing as you're just saying. Was it like a shift from the emphasis on being like an individual to like being more of a part of a category? For some people in your experience?

Lynn Vidler (38:37): yeah, I see what mean. Like, other people's sort of viewing me as like, Lynn is the non-binary person or whatever.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (38:44): Yeah, rather than like, I know that person.

Lynn Vidler (38:47): Um, I mean, let's like, whatever. I just don't care, you know what I

Patrick Dyer Wolf (38:54): Yeah, yeah.

Lynn Vidler (38:56): That's not my problem. You know, but I mean, it does become my problem when the, when it's just people, that's one thing. When it's your entire government, that's another.

Matt Gregory (39:13): Yeah, I just feel, and I think like I went to a college that was very progressive and got sort of, that's probably where I did most of my learning about gender and got to know for the first time people that were openly transgender. I just feel like we're so, ill-prepared for it as a society in the US. Like we just don't get the, like I was never taught it as a kid. I was never taught anything about it as a kid. And so, you know, I think it's, thank you for like sharing with our community about this because I think it's something that people need to spend more time trying to understand. It's just like a really important. So I appreciate your openness.

Lynn Vidler (40:12): It feels really connected to, sorry my eye is, got something in my eye.

Matt Gregory (40:16): No worries.

Lynn Vidler (40:18): Connected to my work in leadership, right, because. Without a sort of authenticity, it's hard to make a statement about your values and what you believe, right? If you're not actually aligned with

Matt Gregory (40:38): Right. Going out this, yeah.

Lynn Vidler (40:41): those values. You know. The whole moral panic about transgender individuals isn't really about the individuals, right? It's about the ways in which our existence challenges certain groups' view of the world, right? And so I understand that, you know? You know, Colorado Springs is a really interesting city. Some of your older listeners may recall Colorado Springs as the home of what was known as Amendment 2 to the Colorado Constitution, which was a, you know, of banning of same-sex marriage or, you know, identifying marriages between a man and woman kind of thing, which was ultimately struck down by the Supreme Court. But in the night, I don't know, I'm trying to remember the timeframe because it was before I was here, but there was a timeframe in the late 80s, early 90s where Colorado Springs was looking to expand its economic situation and created some tax breaks for nonprofits, right? And it drew a wave of evangelical churches to the city. And so it's sometimes affectionately known as the evangelical Vatican because

Matt Gregory (42:27): You

Lynn Vidler (42:27): it's the home of so many, know, focus on the family is here, the new life church is here, Dozens and dozens of, you know, evangelical churches. And it's become in the past, I would say, No, like really since I've been here a little bit more of a little bit more purple in Colorado Springs. But when I came here, my best friend was like, you know, it's Colorado Springs, right? I'm like, okay,

Patrick Dyer Wolf (42:56): It's not Denver.

Lynn Vidler (42:57): I was like, dude, it's not South Dakota, right? Like it's gotta be South

Patrick Dyer Wolf (43:00): Yeah, yeah.

Lynn Vidler (43:01): Dakota, like from that perspective, right? For a trans person to come. And of course I'm coming to university. The university environment is, you know, is open and understanding but It's, you know, we're... We're just trying to live our lives. You know what I mean? So it's not like, I'm not poking the bear and walking into the Focus on the Family bookstore. You know what I mean? If you want to go to the Focus on Family bookstore, I'm totally, that's fine. You know what I mean? But that I think is where so much of this attention is coming from is, Honestly, not. I don't know, it's a red herring, you know, for other things. There's so few of us. We're not bothering anybody. You know what I mean? I don't

Patrick Dyer Wolf (44:11): Yeah.

Lynn Vidler (44:11): think I am, I don't know. If I'm bothering people, it's as a provost, not as a non-binary person.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (44:18): Are you teaching classes now?

Lynn Vidler (44:20): I taught, I team taught one class since I came to Colorado as honestly as Dean and as Provost, it's very, it's so time consuming. It's very difficult to teach, but I did team teach one course in theater history as Dean a couple of years ago. Yeah, that was great fun. It's so interesting to see, cause like you're still teaching, you know, people more or less the same age, right? But they, they keep the generations shift, right? And the generational

Matt Gregory (44:54): Yeah.

Lynn Vidler (44:54): attitudes shift, right? And so it's super interesting to see how different generations approach, you know, the work. I'll give you one example. So this is when I was still at West Point and I had a sabbatical. I came back from sabbatical and just as I came back, generation of students that arrived were the first group that basically had spent their whole lives in No Child Left Behind. Okay.

Matt Gregory (45:29): Hmm.

Lynn Vidler (45:32): And so they were very accustomed to a certain kind of approach to teaching that was, you know, not curiosity driven, but just outcomes driven. Like, I remember coming back for a couple of, was away for a couple of days, I had taken this Colonel to Chile for something who didn't speak any Spanish. And so I was, you know, helping him coordinate with the Chilean Military Academy, right? And, I came back and I was like, hey, you guys want to hear about the trip? And they were like, is it on the test? Why do you care that it's on the test?

Patrick Dyer Wolf (46:10): Will there be a quiz?

Lynn Vidler (46:11): Like this bam, like, wow, okay. This is a whole different thing and they're approaching everything differently.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (46:20): everybody likes to talk about characteristics of generations.

Lynn Vidler (46:25): Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (46:25): And like, I think it's useful as far as it goes, like almost like race. It's like, yeah, I know what that is, but it's like, it's not, it's,

Lynn Vidler (46:38): It's not universe, but...

Patrick Dyer Wolf (46:40): Well, it's not universal and it's not like every kid who's saying that made the choice, like, I'm just going to think about outcomes. That's how I think about the world. That's kind of just the water they're in. And it's

Lynn Vidler (46:54): That's right. That's right.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (46:56): from decisions that were made, which were based on decisions that were made before that. And that's kind of just like the current.

Lynn Vidler (47:02): It is, and that's why we joke about like, back in my day, know,

Patrick Dyer Wolf (47:06): Yeah.

Lynn Vidler (47:08): get off my lawn or whatever, you know.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (47:10): Right, but it's like, you know, the people who are saying, off my lawn, made the decisions that led to how it is now. And it's almost like you're, it's kind of like you're looking at mirrors, you know, and you're like, frustrated with how you look in that particular mirror. It's sort of how I've been thinking about it.

Lynn Vidler (47:29): Yeah, for sure. And No Child Left Behind had just all good intentions behind it. Right? mean, it was like, hey, let's make sure everybody's coming along. And it just had second order effects. So it left behind gifted kids. that weren't really allowed to kind of thrive and flourish forward that they were ready to do, but rather they were kind of kept behind, I guess, with others. So that's just one second order of

Patrick Dyer Wolf (48:11): was asking too about whether you're teaching classes now, because I was curious if you, A, miss it, and B, if you're able to, I mean, I guess just like, do you feel satisfaction now, having climbed to where you are now, being able to... exert influence sounds too Machiavellian, but like, you you feel like you have creative freedom in a way that's satisfying? And you know, like, I know you're a very well-rounded, well-rounded, well-rounded

Lynn Vidler (48:48): Ha

Patrick Dyer Wolf (48:50): humanist, know, Spanish literature and whatnot. Like, do you feel like you have creative freedom? I don't know if that's the right phrase, yeah.

Lynn Vidler (48:59): I've just made it, right? first of all, although I'm not teaching classes for college students, I'm still teaching all the time, especially in the leadership development area, right?

Patrick Dyer Wolf (49:18): Got it.

Lynn Vidler (49:18): So one of the things that, know, every industry has this problem, right? Like you're an excellent widget maker, you're promoted to the foreperson of the widget makers and you don't, okay.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (49:27): Right. And you don't make the widgets anymore.

Lynn Vidler (49:29): You don't make any more like everybody has this problem, but higher ed has a special flavor of challenge in this area because you, in order to become a professor, you have to be a grad student first. And what we teach you in graduate school is how to be a scholar. Right? So we're teaching you research methods, this kind of thing. You have to write a dissertation that is purely a hundred percent original, right? that's never been done before. And then in order to get promoted, you have to publish a lot. so by the time you, know, grad school takes a long time for a humanist, the average is 10 years. So by the time you are promoted and tenured, I mean, you're pretty much in your 40s, like early 40s, and you've never supervised another human being, right? My son has at 20, almost 25, has more managerial and leadership experience than most professors do. And in order to be a provost, for example, you have to be a full professor first. So it's kind of like, it's very similar to the military. Like you can't just put an ad in indeed.com to hire a general. You have to make a general from a lieutenant, And so you have these kinds of prerequisites to get there. So what I've been doing is with my interest in leadership development is to try to implement some leadership development programming at different universities that I've been at starting in South Dakota. And now I'm co-directing a leadership development program for the whole university here at UCCS. And so I get to teach faculty about leadership, right? What does it mean to understand yourself and your values? What does it mean to communicate and listen, right? What does it mean to build a team? What does it mean to engage in conflict resolution? What does it mean to, right? So I do get to teach. I'm just not teaching like college students.

Matt Gregory (52:11): I know we're coming up on time here and I want to be respectful of your time. You you've had a, we can almost chart your growth through your own life experience. And I'm wondering if you might be willing to share what's next for you.

Lynn Vidler (52:30): you

Matt Gregory (52:31): Not just in your work, but like in your own growth.

Lynn Vidler (52:36): yeah so It's been an interesting life for sure. And I think that a lot of, you know, I've had a passion, you know, in the last 10 years for scaling up leadership development in higher education so that we have better leaders, more experienced, prepared leaders for higher education. Throughout that process, I have also had to really deeply reflect about myself. And like I said, I only came out publicly five years ago. And in that process, deeply connecting to my values, learning where my leadership tendencies lie and trying to build in areas of weakness to be a better leader. right now, what I'm seeing is the most toxic leadership possible. in our government from my perspective. can understand some people might have different perspectives from that. Having so many layers of intersectionality in my identities, you know when something happens, like there's a shooting at a synagogue, Like, When I go to synagogue and there's like two security guards and you have to register and be on the list, and you know what mean? It was like a whole thing, okay? But I'm also Hispanic and I see my... my fellow Latinos being pulled from the streets and shipped off to another country. And then all of the anti-trans bills that have been going on, they were piloted in South Dakota, so I've been seeing this for a very long time. The rate of murders of trans people is so much higher per capita than any other category. Right? So it's like the average person may only experience connected pain through one of those. And I'm feeling it through all of them. And to extend that, the current federal administration is really coming down very hard on higher education right now. And you only have to look at the New York Times, I still read, to see what is happening across primarily the elite institutions, but even down to the University of Colorado system, we're experiencing. challenges with respect to inclusivity, programming, international students, federal grants. I'm like, you could go on and on every day for the past six months has been figuring out how to respond to, how to interpret and respond to what's happening. even in this very microcosm of experience of civilian professors at service academies, there has been attention from the federal administration on this question. Why are woke, libtard, snowflake civilian professors harming combat readiness at the service academies? Superintendents called into Congress to testify about civilian professors, civilian professors being laid off at the service academies. And so it has felt, not just felt, it has been a direct attack on the purpose of my life. in so many ways. so, you know, we've been talking about bold decisions that I've been making. And, you know, my wife and I are planning to leave the country as a result. I don't see the response necessary. I can't be alone. That response from where I'm at. my university is part of a system of universities and we are responsible for responding in the way that the system guides us to respond. And it hasn't been what I would rather do. And so hopefully by the time this podcast comes out, I will have resigned my position. And until then, I will do my job and lead in the way that the university is asking me to lead, because that's what leaders do. Leaders are also followers. And sometimes people have to make difficult decisions. If you can no longer lead in the way that you are at being asked to follow, then it's your responsibility to step aside and let somebody else do it. I've been very interested in thinking about, am I going to lose my identity as a high ranking academic? You know, is that who I am? And I feel like the bulk of the work that I've been doing over the past number of years in really deeply understanding who I am. my values, not so much, it's not the higher education context necessarily, right? That happens to be the context that I'm in and that I've been doing the work in. now it's about, wow, what have I learned about leadership? How can I, in my new context, wherever we go, be a force for good? it will just happen from a position, like now I have a position of authority, right? But the leadership doesn't always have to happen that way, right? Leadership can happen when you have no authority, right? You you two are taking the lead on telling amazing stories. And you've just stepped into the authority by creating this podcast to inspire other people to take risks. That's leadership. And you don't have to be hired by a company to lead. And so I'm looking forward to... embedding myself in a new community like I've done so many times before and just helping and being of service. know, Matt, you and I have been, we met because of the coaching workshop that we're taking. learning to be certified leadership and performance coaches through the International Coaching Federation. And so I've been, you know, kind of putting together a business plan. you know, putting together a website, getting a logo, know, opening a bank and registering the business, all that stuff that you do, right? As a solo entrepreneur. you know, so I've worked, Matt and I both need practice coaching hours. So maybe in the show notes, you guys can put in, you know, my contact information

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:01:24): It's a good shout out.

Lynn Vidler (1:01:27): for the coaching

Matt Gregory (1:01:27): Absolutely.

Lynn Vidler (1:01:28): business and I think both Matt and I have really interesting experiences as leaders in our respective organizations that we've worked in and our paths that we're learning to help others think through values and purpose and how your brain might be undermining your ability to achieve your goals and help other people work through. We're not really giving advice. We're just asking the right questions to help others think through what that path is like. And honestly, this particular cohort, and Matt's a big part of this, has really helped me work through this decision. Matt has seen me really struggling with it, for sure. But anyway, we're working toward making towards making it happen and wish the best for the country.

Matt Gregory (1:02:34): Yeah, I mean, God, so many thoughts, but Lynn thank you so much

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:02:39): Yeah.

Matt Gregory (1:02:40): for your time and for your honesty and your authenticity, like showing up as yourself. And I think this isn't like, I don't anticipate this will turn into like a political podcast, but it really, It's really sad. It's really, I mean, it's beyond sad that our country is becoming a place where leaders like you don't feel like they can do their best work and be true to themselves. That's like a travesty. hope that it's a temporary issue, but I'm glad that you are looking for ways to continue to be true to who you are. really excited to see what's next for you and I just like want to keep learning from you because you have so much to offer in the way that you see the world I think.

Lynn Vidler (1:03:45): Yeah, thanks, Matt. Maybe I'll be able to, you from that positionality outside the country and not, you know, responsible for, you know, being embedded in the university system like that, I'll be able to be a voice, you

Matt Gregory (1:04:05): Yeah.

Lynn Vidler (1:04:06): know, in ways that I can't be right now, that I want to be. So anyway, hey, thanks for your time. It's been great to get to know you guys.

Matt Gregory (1:04:12): Yeah, thank you both. was wonderful. And Lynn hope you're, yeah, I look forward to sharing this with the audience and thank you again.

Lynn Vidler (1:04:24): Great.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:04:25): I hope that we can meet again, whether in Portugal or not, because I only got to ask about two of my 700 questions.

Matt Gregory (1:04:36): Hahaha

Lynn Vidler (1:04:39): Happy to chat, you know, if you're looking for a coach, you know, let me know

Matt Gregory (1:04:45): Yeah. Lynn's the best.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:04:45): There you go.

Matt Gregory (1:04:47): All right. Well, thank you, Lynn. All right. See you.

Lynn Vidler (1:04:51): Yeah, thanks Matt. Thanks Pat

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:04:53): Thank you.

Lynn Vidler (1:04:54): bye.

Matt Gregory (1:04:55): what an amazing human being.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:04:58): Incredible. So many facets. I think you emphasized it pretty well, it's such like shame is an extreme understatement that a person of such diversity of experience and knowledge in the time when they're perhaps needed most is basically driven away. from our country.

Matt Gregory (1:05:29): Yeah. I mean, think, I think a way to reframe it too is that, you know, the States has been a really good place for people. like Lynn, and, know, and, and I think it's part of like framing how, like sometimes it's like, you know, I live a pretty privileged life and my life hasn't really changed, you know, materially since, you know, there's a lot of headlines that scare me and stuff, but like, my life hasn't really changed with the current administration. but Lynn's life has materially changed like, and, and there's really

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:06:09): in all those ways.

Matt Gregory (1:06:10): in all those ways. And I appreciate their ability to put those feelings into words so that I can understand them better. And I think it helps me understand like why we're moving in a direction that's just not the right one for this country.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:06:36): I'm hoping that we can somehow do a little bit of a turn it off and turn it on again, which is the number one solution to IT problems. I don't know if you've dabbled in IT.

Matt Gregory (1:06:50): Yeah, no, I I having sound issues earlier in this interview and that crossed my mind. Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:06:56): You've got to turn it off and turn it on. I mean, you you can use the pendulum. I don't think it's a two-dimensional thing. I think it's kind of going all different,

Matt Gregory (1:07:06): Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:07:07): three or perhaps four D. know, I have... you know, friends who talk about like losing faith in that, you know, the classic Martin Luther King saying about the arc of history, bends for justice. And you thinking about how like, you know, that's not necessarily true. And I, I want to remain hopeful that even if it's not necessarily true, like that the only thing we can do is make it true and hope to make it true. Because if it's not true... well.

Matt Gregory (1:07:51): Yeah. I mean, I think that like, there's so much that's out of our control as, as human beings, but, I think it is in our control to look for little ways to, make things better. whether you're talking

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:08:09): Yeah, just...

Matt Gregory (1:08:10): about, you know, the way that, you know, our culture accepts people. Like I do, like, I really appreciated Lynn's comments about the podcast and like, the way the podcast was leadership and like could help, you know, to, tell stories that need to be told. you know, I have, but I had this, you know, on another level had this conversation with my son where I'm like, Hey, on the way to the ice cream shop, why don't we pick up trash? Like, you know, we just watched this movie about like climate change and we're like, shit, this is so big and scary. And it's like, well, we can pick up trash in the way to the ice cream place. And so it's like these little things like,

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:08:46): Yeah, just a few pieces of trash.

Matt Gregory (1:08:48): yeah, that like, you know, I think that whether or not life bends towards justice, like I think if you live that way, you help to make that true.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:09:04): Right. it's, I think it's, it's easy to knock, it's easy to kick down a sand castle. It's harder to build one. and it's easy to get discouraged when your sand castle is kicked down. but the only way to lose is to give up building sand castles. and I think that. you know, Lynn saying encouraging words about the podcast, like, as they said at the top, leading in a way that is encouraging fosters you to be a leader that's encouraging. like, if you, you, them encouraging our work, I think, leads us to want to instill that in somebody else.

Matt Gregory (1:10:00): Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:10:00): And that's that, you know, it's, it has a ripple effect.

Matt Gregory (1:10:03): It's self-perpetuating.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:10:04): Yeah, self perpetuating as opposed to the the opposite way of like, trying to you know, get somebody to do something out of fear or out of, you know, coercion or,

Matt Gregory (1:10:21): Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:10:23): you know, the more... anxiety-laden, stressful, less patient, loving,

Matt Gregory (1:10:35): Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:10:36): empathetic ways of getting somebody to do what you want them to do.

Matt Gregory (1:10:40): Yeah, I think this is related, but I think about this as it connects to like coaching work. There are hard, hard moments in life. formerly like working in a job where I checked boxes and, got stuff done. Like, even if I was going through something on a personal level that was hard or, or, you know, some trauma or whatever, like I could show up to my job and do my job because, it didn't really require me to show up emotionally. Like it didn't really require me to like, be there. And, and I think like, Coaching is different because you really do need to be like so present with this person that you're connecting with. you need to be, you you can't even be focused on what you're gonna say next. You need to be focused on the person entirely, their relationship to the topic, their body language, you know, what they're not

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:11:37): Mm-hmm.

Matt Gregory (1:11:38): saying. And you need to ask open-ended curious questions. And I feel like that. One of the reasons that I'm attracted to this career path for myself is that it forces a presence that I think is really important. I think my belief is that it's a more fulfilling career if you can be fully present. I wonder, I'm curious if music is the same way that you're really that you're really bringing yourself there. I just think there are a lot of people who they clock in and clock out of jobs that pay their bills, but that they don't bring their full human selves to. And I think Lynn does, and that's why Lynn has to make this decision to move, because they can't be themselves in this system.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:12:40): Yeah, they can't fake it.

Matt Gregory (1:12:41): and a leader. Do you feel that way about music?

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:12:45): I really like your description of coaching in that way, how it's sort of like you can't come in with your own agenda. You have to be ready to receive what the person is giving you. And I think there's, you know, there's a couple different ways to experience music. If you're a music listener or maker, there's a couple different ways you experience it. I think it's a similar relationship to presence, being present in terms of how much you're gonna get out of it. Like you can clock in and clock out of listening to music or making music, be around. you know, notes and music all the time. But if you allow yourself to be very present with the tune that's coming to you and then follow that and see what it wants to be. And then if you're present with the, once that's a song, if you're present with the audience and see how they're receiving it, as opposed to just you know, playing something out of muscle memory and like trying to get

Matt Gregory (1:14:05): Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:14:06): through it. think almost any job really has that choice. maybe more part of what the job is of being something like a coach.

Matt Gregory (1:14:18): Mm-hmm.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:14:20): It's so geared to making yourself kind of flow like water around the other person and around the situation that they're in. And I think a lot of jobs are geared toward being more like a jackhammer.

Matt Gregory (1:14:38): Yeah. Yeah. Another, another, a coach that was, is coaching me, used the analogy of like lifting a heavy ball, you know, like as like,

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:14:49): Mm-hmm.

Matt Gregory (1:14:50): you know, the, type of exertion that you have, like in that, that those moments of not being present. so I guess to try to connect the dots here, like, you know, I think we all have opportunities in our lives to be present with the people that we're with, whether it's at work or home. I think there's a real gift that you give to other people and to yourselves when you're present.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:15:20): for

Matt Gregory (1:15:21): And then you ask, why aren't people present? And I think there's distraction, there's exhaustion, there's fear. There's all of these different pieces that are tugging us away from being present. And I think to flip that, what does it take to stay present? It's like courage. It's like, I think self-care, like taking care of yourself so that you're rested enough. You've set healthy boundaries in a way that allow you to be present. and, that's the thing that I feel like I took from the conversation with Lynn and like, I want to take for myself is like, what are the things that I need to do to take care of myself, to like be, to, to, hold that courage, put it in a bottle so that like, I can like show up as the, as the fuller person. and it's just, I think, you know, I know you've experienced it and I think a lot of people have experienced it. Like that. It's just such a good feeling to, to be, to show up that way.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:16:37): think it's being present is a habit that's as hard or harder to build than any habit. And I forget what parenting book or podcast I heard this on. I I like the metaphor is like, when you're trying to teach a kid something, which is similar to trying to teach yourself something. It's like building a bridge across the Grand Canyon with two by fours one at a time.

Matt Gregory (1:17:03): Mm-hmm.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:17:03): And don't get discouraged because it's going to take a while but just like keep Keep with the 2x4s.

Matt Gregory (1:17:10): Yeah, totally. Those aren't big pieces of wood.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:17:14): No, I mean the two but you know, we're not specifying how long they are. But that's the...

Matt Gregory (1:17:18): True, true, true, true, true, true. Well, Pat, I want to thank you again for chatting with me and Lynn today. I think it was great to have you in this conversation and what are you?

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:17:34): Thank you.

Matt Gregory (1:17:35): yeah, of course. What are you looking forward to? What's coming up for you?

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:17:41): man, well we're working on our album. I'm looking forward to keeping doing that, getting the songs, the two by fours are up on the songs and we're just putting drywall on and someday we'll get rugs and furniture.

Matt Gregory (1:17:53): Nice.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:17:54): I'm looking forward to visiting some of my wife's family before it's the school year again, you know?

Matt Gregory (1:18:04): Nice. I am excited. guess just yesterday, I kicked off a design project for Big Forest and for Trail Map Podcast.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:18:18): Awesome.

Matt Gregory (1:18:19): And so there's going to be some fun new logos coming soon. And yeah, really amazing designer named Ha-Ti who I worked with at Nood. who's doing that design work.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:18:36): Your network is so robust, just have to say. You have

Matt Gregory (1:18:40): Yeah.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:18:41): such a robust and diverse and far-reaching network.

Matt Gregory (1:18:45): That's true. That's something that I enjoy. And also, taking a trip with my family. So I'm very excited about that as well. there might be some interruptions in the podcast production schedule, but looking forward to hitting the ground again in September and sharing some good podcasts.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:19:10): Hang tight, listeners.

Matt Gregory (1:19:12): Hang tight. Although I guess they won't be listening to this till next spring.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:19:17): Yeah. Hello from the past. Hopefully things are good in the future or trending upward.

Matt Gregory (1:19:26): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right, sir. Be well.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:19:31): Good to see you,

Matt Gregory (1:19:31): Good to see you too. Talk to you later.

Patrick Dyer Wolf (1:19:34): Later.