Matt Gregory (00:11): Hey guys, it's Matt. Welcome to the first episode, the first bonus episode that we've had, which we're calling Trail Mix. just mixing it up a little bit. and today's content is gonna be about a visit that I took to 4A Coffee Roasters. if you listened to our last episode with Alan Draper, trail map episode with Alan Draper. We got a chance to get to know Alan. and then I I got to spend a day with him at the coffee roaster. learning about the roasting process and about tasting coffee. And I'm really excited to share the footage. And thanks again to Alan for having us in. So you'll see Trail Mix hopefully starting to be part of our our feed of new episodes. we're gonna use trail mix as an opportunity to do Different kinds of things, whether it's you know an on-site visit with somebody or talking to somebody about a a project that they've started that's really inspiring and lighting them up. and so really excited to share this new format with you guys. definitely keep the keep the feedback coming and hope you enjoy this first trail mix.

Matt Gregory (01:23): Morning guys, I'm here in the car headed to 4A Coffee Roasters in Newton, Mass. pretty excited about today. It's the first time on Trail Map that we're taking it to the road and and gonna do a little bit of additional footage of us at the coffee roaster with Alan Draper who's the founder and owner there, learning about the coffee roasting process. Talk to you soon.

Matt Gregory (01:46): let's head on in to meet Alan and talk to him about the roasting process here at 4A

Alan Draper (01:51): Hey Alan, how's it going? Good. Thank you so much for having us to 4A today.

Alan Draper (01:55): Yeah, welcome to our little boutique coffee roastery here in Newton

Alan Draper (01:59): Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's an awesome space. I got to see it for the first time a couple months ago and I definitely am a huge fan of 4A I used to go to your cafe in Brookline. but now Alan runs a ecomm coffee roasting business. So how's that going for you?

Alan Draper (02:14): It's great. We had a lot of past customers who've come on board again. They've canceled their subscriptions that they got when we were gone. Yeah. We were doing an online business through the cafe, but now just focusing on coffee, we can put a little bit more effort into it, a little bit more focus. That's awesome. Yeah, we're very thrilled.

Alan Draper (02:32): That's awesome. Yeah, it's really cool to see local manufacturing like this. I don't know if you even can consider yourself a manufacturer, but like producing a product like this, really high attention to detail and and quality. So excited to learn a bit more from you today about the process.

Alan Draper (02:47): Absolutely, yeah. This was kind of a dream. We're so close to Boston, people can't see but the Charles River is right there about a hundred yards away from us. Yeah. And this gives us a great distribution point. So we can get the coffee in small amounts. We don't keep a lot of stock. Sure. Have a nice and fresh, fresh crop, get it roasted, roast it well, and then ship it out the same day the next day. So

Alan Draper (03:09): I know as a as a customer I'm a big fan. So excited to learn more about the process today. Thanks for having us again.

Alan Draper (03:14): Absolutely.

Alan Draper (03:15): Yeah, so basically we're starting with feeding the coffee through this pneumatic feeder into the hopper of the drum roaster.

Alan Draper (03:23): Today, this is a fifteen pound batch. And this just saves anyone from having to go way up high and lift 50 pound this is a 55 pound batch roaster, so it can be quite heavy. And we'll turn that on, it'll be sucked through the tube and into the hopper. That's just little dust, green coffee dust we call it. Smells good. Yeah, it's just some solubles that are kind of been shaken up during the transportation process. Yeah. So we're up here now, we're just waiting for the roaster to warm up. As it's warming up, I can explain this piece of equipment, which I've always wanted. It's a big, a big hunky piece of equipment, but it does a job that's very important. When they're drying the coffee, on cement patios, which is what they mostly do unless they're doing it on a raised bed, which is limited. They'll spread the coffee out on the patios, and every now and then you'll get a little stone. And Could be the best coffee in the world, the most expensive, the most carefully processed coffee, but you sometimes get a stone. And it's kind of a something that roasters are a little anxious about. And that really requires the roaster to really be observant of anything that might be in the the the cooling tray as it's cooling to see if there's any stones. But this is an added protection. It's not perfect, but what it does, it's a big vacuum and it it goes by weight. So it's calibrated.

Alan Draper (04:45): to leave the stones behind. So that's that. So once we start the roast here. Just a couple of minutes. The coffee's waiting up here in the hopper. We'll start the drum and we'll get the ball rolling. This is our blend. Most blends I won't roast together, but this particular blend we developed over 20 years ago, we found that all the coffees had the same discharge point, the same temperature, the same color. They were all working together. Some are just a little bit darker than the others, some are a little bit more dense. But as a whole, it works together. So that's what we're doing today, our Silk Route blend. And I'll just wait till that comes up to about 415 temperature. That's a good spot to what we call charge the beans. Charging is when you release the beans into the drum. And that's very important in the whole process because the roast is going to follow a curve. And the beginning of that curve is determined by the temperature you start at. there are there are many other factors as well. The drum the heat of the drum has an impact. We don't want that drum to be too hot, so when I do back to back roasts, I'll give it a a second to kinda get back to its cooler temp. So we'll just wait for this about a c five minutes or so and that should be ready to go. Yep. Is it right, Alan, that like the main levers that you have for roasting are sort of time and temperature? Yeah, yeah. I mean there's a lot of artistry involved and there's a lot of chemistry. Yeah. I won't go into the chemistry because I'm not as versed as as some people. this is more of a hands-on artisanal approach. Yeah. But you know, working with these coffees for so many years, I kinda know how they like to be roasted. a lot of factors that determine how coffee should be roasted differently is the amount of acidity that's inside the bean. So certain coffees like a Kenya with a high acidity or a Costa Rica, sometimes if I know what the acidity is trying to achieve, I'll I might give it a little more time under high heat in the b beginning. Okay. but most coffees follow a similar curve. And I release them at different points. certain African coffees don't tend to do so well at a darker level. So even though I consider myself kind of approaching a dark roast. I don't want to certain coffees to be too dark. Got it. a coffee like a Sumatra, I'll go well into the second crack. Because that's kind of our profile is that each coffee has a certain taste and flavor profile that has a reduced acidity. Got it. So basically the longer, the darker your roasted coffee, the more you reduce the perceived acidity of the coffee. So that's kind of what we're trying to achieve. And that's just our style. Yeah. coffee is apparently twice as complex as wine, over eight hundred flavor compounds. Wow. So people have different expectations from coffee. So we might not suit everyone's taste. Sure. But we're definitely hit a certain demographic. Yeah. Kind of post Starbucks, but not quite what they did in what they call the third wave, was everyone going real light? Yeah. we just found that our personal taste was to have more of a muted acidity. Got it. And how does like you're so you're sourcing beans year round, how does seasonality play into what you see in terms of bean quality or variations in flavor? Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean that that's kind of an issue. coffee last in its green state for a year or two. Some people say ten months. But each coffee, which is determined by its density and its moisture level, will last a bit longer. Okay. but there's nothing like fresh coffee from say twenty twenty six that's just been picked. It it should rest, of course. Okay. And they do rest them for up to three months at origin. Yeah. Because because they've just been picked, and I won't get into the chemistry here. there's still a lot of and through the processing method. Yeah. There's a lot of reactions that are still going on that need to settle. Got it. Yeah. It's a lively little seed. Yeah. And how how does how how is like weather changes, so like climate change and other factors. Yeah. I've heard about coffee getting more and more expensive. Yeah, yeah. I'm curious about that. Yeah. Yeah, there's been Obviously market volatility. Yeah. due to recent administrative decisions. Yeah. the the tariff on Brazil created a little bit of a chaotic event. Okay. preceding that the market was getting real high. And I won't get into the history of the C market, which is how coffee is traded. Yeah. But there was once a kind of a quota system and it was pre predetermined Now again, most coffee was still coming from the Western Hemisphere at the time, in this in this part of the world. Yeah. So that there weren't big booms and busts where there was an overproduction or an underproduction. There were certain measures that they instituted. Yeah. And there were agreements between buyers and producers that kind of controlled the market a little bit. Sure. And that ended a few decades ago and created kind of a a volatile market that we see today. when I came back in 2012 when we started in Brookline the market was really low and it was great for us. So we could we had a lot of breathing room. Yeah. coming back into this venture, the market is extremely high. Yeah. And so which puts pressure on you and your margins. Yeah. And and the importers. Yeah. So Brazil has been a kind of a tricky coffee for us. We use it a lot in our blend, our Silk Route blend. So it's been bottlenecked a little bit. And it's been a little bit hard to get. So Brazil, the price of Brazil is actually surpassed the price of Kenya. wow. Which is classically the most expensive coffee. Okay. You know, overall. Okay.

Alan Draper (10:31): Alright, so this is the initial drying phase. As you know, coffee is very green, it's gonna moisture level anywhere from 10 to 13, 14% depending on the bean. And that's basically the first four or five minutes you're just drying the coffee out. And then it'll begin to yellow. And then we'll have the Maillard process, which is sugars and amino acids reacting to create browning. And that'll happen at about two eighty degrees, three hundred. every 30 seconds now it's down to about 16 degrees every 30 seconds so it's rising 16 degrees fahrenheit every 30 seconds and that's dropping I'm gonna just take a look So we're still pretty green, we're starting a yellow, just barely starting to yellow. So

Matt Gregory (11:23): Okay.

And when you were in your space in Brookline, you were roasting in that location too, right? Yeah. You were roasting in the yeah. So you had a lot going on in there. Yeah. Yeah. Alan Draper (11:34): Yes. Roasting. I like to do everything myself. Yeah. I'm kind of a control freak. So, yeah.

Matt Gregory (11:47): Well, the best things are created by control freaks, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alan Draper (11:52): The nice thing about that was I could control the whole process.

Matt Gregory (11:55): Yeah. So what's your ideal at home brewing method?

Alan Draper (12:03): I I always liked French press and and people in the industry will laugh at me because it's it's the most imprecise, but I like the body of it. Yeah. I like the comfort of it. and in the morning I I I do like a little bit of milk, but it's not the cleanest method. Probably for me as a home method outside of espresso would be the aeropress. because in with the aeropress you have steep time.

Matt Gregory (12:18)

Yeah. Alan Draper (12:30): which is what you get with a French press. You also have the pressure, even more than a French press sometimes. And you also have a clean cup because it goes through a very fine filter. Mm-hmm. And so you've got a lot of good attributes.

Matt Gregory (12:46): I haven't tried the aero press yet, but I'd like to. Yeah.

Alan Draper (12:51): My daughter does it in in college.

Matt Gregory (12:53): She does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a kind of the perfect dorm room equipment.

Alan Draper (12:58): Okay, absolutely. Yeah.

So it's really humid. And even though this is pretty hermetic inside the drum, moisture still plays a factor. There's moisture in that that pipe, that stack. The beans have been sitting in a little bit of mo moisture overnight. so I noticed that the heat was a little higher than usual. It's developing a little quicker, but it's okay. I make adjustments. Matt Gregory (13:04): Today? Yeah. Sure.

Alan Draper (13:32): And that's why I can never f I don't like to fully automate this. And because the roasting curve has changed, I'll have a final temperature that's different from the last time.

Matt Gregory (13:35): Yeah. I roasted coffee

Alan Draper (13:51): Another thing I like to do when I'm roasting is I don't like to make adjustments very often. I like a nice even roast. So

Matt Gregory (13:57): Yeah.

Alan Draper (14:02): What I've just done now, because you know heat is also energy. I want the energy to be stable. So as I saw it was dropping down a little bit, I'm looking at my rate of rise. I reduced the fan speed. So modern roasters also have a fan that helps to create a little bit more airflow in the drum, which will shoot out. the back and the nice thing about that is you don't have to make a flame adjustment. It's a much subtler adjustment. So I kept my flame at the same level. I just dropped the fan a little bit. And now I'm at the rate of rise that I want.

Matt Gregory (14:44): Got it. And it's a gas, it's a gas.

Alan Draper (14:49): Yeah. So soon we'll get to the first crack.

Matt Gregory (14:59): huh.

Alan Draper (15:01): And what that is, so most roasters roast their coffee between the first and second crack. Once you get into the second crack, you're getting into dark roast. because I've done a lot of dark roast, I've done light roast. It's starting to crack now. The more you go into that second crack, really the more you're creating kind of this carbon-like taste, which is kind of that Starbucks taste, the old Starbucks. In a way you're burning the coffee. I like to go to a certain point because I also like the comfort of a roasty flavor. And that's just me. And other people obviously do too. So

Matt Gregory (15:45): I definitely prefer that. Yeah, yeah. Some of the lighter roasts you I feel like there are too many off notes and the comfort of the roastiness is nice.

Alan Draper (15:56): And it's the naked coffee. Yeah. So if there are any blemishes, you're gonna

Matt Gregory (16:00): You're gonna taste it, yeah. A lot of variability. Yep.

Alan Draper (16:05): Alright, so now the rate of rise is dropping considerably. I've dropped the fan because, like I said, I like a good even roast. You can hear the first crack. And what's happening is the coffee is kind of put together the way it was formed in its embryo, embryonic phase within the cherry, is that it has this kind of fold over and as it expands that kind of pops. Okay. And some moisture is released.

Matt Gregory (16:15): Yeah.

Alan Draper (16:33): Which sometimes can create what they call an exothermic atmosphere. so if my flame is too low, as the moisture is released, you'll have kind of a drop in temp. And if I have enough energy going into the  s first crack, I don't need to make any changes. But since I was ki I slowed it down a bit, I noticed that my my rate of rise was dropping a little bit more than I wanted to

Matt Gregory (16:42): Okay. Okay, so

Alan Draper (17:04): So now we're going into the developmental phase. We've passed the Maillard process. And you know now we're into this browning phase. Look at that. So that's kind of a cinnamon roast, what they call.

Matt Gregory (17:13): yeah.

Alan Draper (17:17): All temperature readings are different based on the drum size, the probe. This has an infrared probe, but the V temperatures I'll get here, the B temperature I'll get there. Has to do with how much volume is in that drum. Okay. So nobody can tell you what no one can give you a formula. It all has to be done on site, which is kind of fascinating. Alright, we're almost done here, so I'm gonna stop talking. You can never copy someone's roast profile. Yeah.

Matt Gregory (17:40): Real art.

Alan Draper (18:17): Just saw that smoke. That's a copy that is starting to enter the dark phase of coffee. But this is not a dark roast. And th this is a problem It's a terminology that's different for every for everyone. And especially Coffee Association of America has guidelines based on color and temperature. But as I said before, temperature is never the same from from one setting to another. Yeah. So this is this is very brown and beige. I do have a couple of natural coffees in here which roast differently and have different moisture levels. So that's why you see some of the lighter beans. If they're really light, that's what they call a Quaker. And we don't like Quakers.

Matt Gregory (19:12): These are Quakers. I see, yeah, yeah.

Alan Draper (19:15): So I'll get them from time to time. You know, some coffees are so good as coffees, but they were processed a little bit carelessly, but they're still good. And so sometimes I'll take a coffee and I'll just kinda with my gloves I'll pick out some of the Quakers. Because that's just... Just a little bit of laziness and an otherwise very grueling process of harvesting, processing, drying, and shipping coffee is such a grueling process labor intensive I should say. And grueling for the pickers. I've done it

Matt Gregory (19:54): Yeah.

Alan Draper (19:59): Many people have gone to Origin and they pick coffee. Yeah. And it's it's almost like picking blueberries or strawberries. It's fun for a while. Yeah. But you're doing it all day. It's a lot of work. So and by the way, at Origin, especially in poorer countries, they have migrant traveling pickers. And they travel with their families. And at some of the really good farms, especially Rainforest Alliance,

Matt Gregory (20:20): Got it.

Alan Draper (20:27): They'll actually have dormitories, they'll have cooking areas, they'll have schools for the kids. So the kids gain informal schooling at some of these places.

Matt Gregory (20:36): Yeah. How much traveling have you done to Origin?

Alan Draper (20:40): I've been to Origin five times. I'm definitely not an expert on processing but I've definitely you know, really observed and asked a lot of questions. But the  in some of the poorer countries the children will actually pick too. And at first you're like, that's that's exploitative but the parents are pretty good at limiting how much they do and I think it's something that kids

Matt Gregory (20:42): Okay. Yeah.

Alan Draper (21:09): You know, they're always kinda doing things anyway that are are keeping them busy and I don't know where I'm at in on that and I haven't seen a lot of it. Yeah. But sometimes that's an issue. So definitely the nice thing about small roasters and small importers is they're they're importing responsibly and they're choosing partners responsibly.

Matt Gregory (21:19): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Draper (21:35): I did a an origin trip in Nicaragua and I saw all different kinds of coffee farms and processing stations. From the Rainforest Alliance, which were beautiful to kind of non-transparent, big production, non-traceable, in really bad conditions. And I can smell

Matt Gregory (21:56): Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Draper (22:00): hundreds of yards away before we enter the farm. Because they weren't cleaning their tanks. They had a lot of putrefication of spent, you know, coffee cherry. Yeah. And bad water processing. Dumping water right back into the river. At really good farms they'll filter and manage the water before they release it back into the general, you know, water source.

Matt Gregory (22:04): Yeah. So there's like an environmental impact on not farming responsibly, but what about on the coffee quality? Like do you start to see problems with the coffee because of that? Yeah.

Alan Draper (22:34): I mean what I do is just about twenty percent to do with the quality of it. And

Matt Gregory (22:41): Yeah.

Alan Draper (22:44): 60% is at origin. Of course, once you make the coffee, a lot of people forget this that you can screw it up. You can screw up the best coffee. So that's important, but they're doing all the work. How carefully they they process and pick this coffee is everything. And the cultivar.

Matt Gregory (22:54): Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So this is cooling the beans right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alan Draper (23:14)

So basically we've got a fan underneath and it's flipped. Yeah. So it's drawing atmospheric through the beans and Matt Gregory (23:16): Yeah. I see. So like on a day like today that's humid, are the beans picking up moisture now as they cool or

Alan Draper (23:30): Not really. Yeah. You know, it's a pretty hardy thing. Obviously it it expands. Yeah. It gets bigger. It almost doubles in size. And it loses, like I said, anywhere from depending how dark you roast it, the more you roast, the more weight it loses. Which is another incentive for a lighter roast.

Matt Gregory (23:39): Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Alan Draper (23:54): You notice there's no oil on the surface. Which tells you the roast level a little bit. as it starts to rest, the cellular structure is starting to break it's continues to break down up until 10 days. And when that happens, as a cellular structure inside is breaking down, some of those lipids will release to the surface and you'll have a shiny.

Matt Gregory (23:56): Yeah. Yeah. And without sharing anything proprietary, like the Silk Route blend is a combination of different beams. How long did it take you to like come up with that combo? Was it just sort of gradual or Okay.

Alan Draper (24:31): It actually didn't take that long. and we changed it about two years into into Brookline. I added a little bit more of another natural and it was like coke and there was one guy from Canada who preferred the original. Yeah. And I also like the original. And I thought about going back so many times, but I had already put this out there.

Matt Gregory (24:40): Yeah. in old code. Yeah. Yeah. So much. Yeah.

Alan Draper (24:57): There is a difference and it's it's a little bit less berry and a little bit more floral.

Matt Gregory (25:02): Okay. So much precision there's like it's like real art in addition to the science. There is

Alan Draper (25:11): I think a lot of it is care and like wanting to do the best but yeah precision and care is really the most You're trying to get you know, my thing is I'm trying to get the best copies that are actually affordable. And everybody's trying to do that. So I've got a guy over here who just bought a sixty dollar for like eight ounces geisha from George Howell. We and I've been to that farm, I can show you pictures. And it's in it's in Panama, Boquete. They wrote a book about this farm. but I don't think that's realistic.

Matt Gregory (25:26): Yeah. Yeah. wow. Yeah. But did you try it? Yeah. Yeah. yeah.

Alan Draper (25:54): Yeah. It's good. It's very clean. It's balanced. It's clean and it has no defects.

Matt Gregory (26:02): His roasts tend to be a little lighter, right?

Alan Draper (26:04): Yeah, so when I got back when I came here first wait, first I went to Kazakhstan in the early two thousands and I was already like, No, everyone's going too light. This isn't right. It's it's too it's too much of a shift in the other direction. So I went like more medium, medium to dark. And so George was one of those people who went light. And there's another reason for doing that. I won't get into that, but a lot of people have readjusted. Yeah. So I I know when I saw his geisha. Yeah. Actually so it wasn't his geisha. It was Blue Bottle. But I know he does the same thing. Yeah. he's got some coffees that are a little bit darker now. Yeah. A lot of people are doing that. So blue bottle was also a light roaster. We brought one in yesterday and it was very dark.

Matt Gregory (26:39): Okay. really? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, it does feel I think you and I talked about this last time. It does feel like there's trend going the other direction to darker roasts

Alan Draper (27:05): Alright, we're ready to go. Okay. So yeah, I'm gonna release this into here. And Mm-hmm.

Alan Draper (28:03): This is almost all built in Germany, but this hunker was built here. And I think a welder built it. Okay. You know, it's you're gonna see it's a little clunky.

Matt Gregory (28:03): you You

Alan Draper (28:16): Does the job though. Yeah. This is the part that I I don't like is that I lose a few beans sometimes. Got it. Alright, so. I'm checking for stones. Looks like beans. Yep, no stones. And I don't see any really defective coffee here. These might just be a little bit lighter, yeah, a little bit more misshapen. so yeah, we're good. Cool.

Alan Draper (28:38): in a in a professional comping, for any sample, like say we're cupping Ethiopia, you need to do three. if there's any if there's a lack of uniformity, if there's a defect, it might be in one and not the others. I see. But we're only gonna do one each. So I figure we do one Ethiopian natural and then Honduras which is washed. Okay. Sounds good. They're both organic.

Matt Gregory (28:54): you you

Alan Draper (29:02): So it's about 8.25 grams. These are S SCA standards, to 150 milliliters of water. so whenever you're sampling a new coffee or any coffee, you have to kind of purge the grinder a bit. so I'm gonna just put a little bit extra in each sample. The important thing is that there is eight point two five grams here.

Matt Gregory (29:38): you

Alan Draper (29:38): And usually people will do it right into the cup here.

Matt Gregory (29:59): So what are what are the two here?

Alan Draper (30:02): That's the Ethiopian natural. Okay. Yeah, so to really smell it, I know it looks a little bit but You have to bury your head in there. Because what happens is your nose is competing with

Matt Gregory (30:15): Everything else. Yeah, it's one of those things I I did a class when I used when I was working in the food industry I did a class on tasting and like s sort of qualitative how you taste things and like the words you use and I feel like I need l I need like training for coffee. Yeah. Well could you could you tell me what you smell with these two?

Alan Draper (30:38): Yeah, yeah. Everyone does. Everything is a vocabulary. Yeah. Yep. Well, do you see a a huge difference in the two coffees? I mean do you perceive a huge difference?

Matt Gregory (30:58): So the Ecuador smells really fruity to me. Yes. sorry, Eth Ethiopia smells really fruity to me. is it like a stone fruit type?

Alan Draper (31:05): Ethiopia. Yeah, you got that. You know when they when you professionally evaluate you're not supposed to tell each other what you think. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so we're not doing that. Yeah. So 'cause I don't want to influence you. Yeah. I get a little bit of a blueberry strawberry.

Matt Gregory (31:22): I'm learning here. No, no, no.

Alan Draper (31:30): I think the citrus w for me is more would be more with the Honduras. Kind of like a just a hint of maybe like a Hold on, let me see. Yeah, maybe a little plum, maybe a little stone fruit here. Now this is the dry aroma. You're gonna get a little bit more when we do the wet

Matt Gregory (31:53): the the most significant difference that I smell between these two are the Ethiopia is just like a fruitiness. Yes. I see what you mean, but I don't know that I really get that. And then the Honduras is more anchored in like a roasty coffee yes. Or chocolatey sort of flavor.

Alan Draper (32:13): Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Matt Gregory (32:18): I think it of I I think probably for me I would be more drawn towards the Honduras just on Aroma. interesting. But yeah.

Alan Draper (32:24): Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. When they're evaluating, they're not evaluing evaluating for particular notes. They're evaluating based on those attributes that I gave you. Flavor, body, aftertaste, balance, overall flavor. So that's what's most important. This is all kind of subjective in a way. Yeah. So

Matt Gregory (32:46): Yeah, one of the things that I learned too is that once so probably starting with the olfactory is better for perception. Once you start drinking then your flavor your taste buds are like can't taste the difference between it.

Alan Draper (33:00): That's right, that's right. That's right.

Matt Gregory (33:12): So what's the rationale for having like versus filtering the the grounds, like having the grounds in the cup as you're cupping it?

Alan Draper (33:20): Well, right here I'm getting the all the advantages of a without you know the the kind of inherent like physics issues of certain things, you know, because even in your best pourover you're still working with a funnel. Yep. And you're not getting the exact extraction, even extraction that you want. and then also there's no filter. that could that could create an issue of of perception if the filter causes any off And we'll let that steep four minutes.

Matt Gregory (34:05): Okay.

Alan Draper (34:09): You know, this is just to rinse the spoon. So each time, especially if you're going between coffees. So what we'll do is we'll break the crust and and we'll evaluate the the wet and what they call the fragrance. And after that happens, we'll clean all the grounds from the top.

Matt Gregory (34:30): Okay.

Alan Draper (34:33): And and then we'll evaluate the coffee three different times. We'll make three passes. Okay. And the reason for that is you probably know is you want to see how coffee does as it starts to cool. Okay. Some coffees can be great hot and and then lose their So we'll go through three

Matt Gregory (34:40): Okay. Okay. Interesting,

Alan Draper (34:51): So when that hits four, we'll break Okay. We're just going like that. It's it's basically just releasing all of the aroma and fragrance here. That's it. Yeah really. You're getting a bit more, right?

Matt Gregory (35:31): It's interesting the the parts of the fragrance that are maintained from the dry beans and the parts that you get less of too. Yes.

Alan Draper (36:02): Cool. Yeah. Okay, so now what we're gonna do is clean all this off the top, which is a little bit tricky but it's not that tricky. And it's basically taking two spoons Of course you won't get all of it, but

Matt Gregory (36:17): Yeah.

Alan Draper (36:34): And I completely finish one before I get to the other so you don't cross contaminate, so to speak.

Matt Gregory (36:44): It seems like maybe when I took the crust off the top, a lot of the maybe did the grounds like fall in the

Alan Draper (36:52): That's okay. We're only taking very small slips. And you can see the surface. Yeah. There's no there's no grounds. Nothing's gonna get into your throat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And then we'll we'll take the first pass.

Matt Gregory (36:58): Yeah.

Alan Draper (37:20): yeah. yeah. So the key is to puck your lips and it it could go down your throat. And the more you can accentuate the slurping. I mean people screech when they slurp. I love this coffee. I shouldn't say that as we're I love this coffee.

Matt Gregory (37:27): Yeah. Yeah. It's really valuing. No, it's really good. Well it's just interesting because I feel like some of the fruity notes were initially I was like, is this too light for me? But I don't get that at all in the in the liquid form. No. Yeah. It's delicious.

Alan Draper (38:01): Th th th that's my goal is I wanna make it fruity but not not unpleasant fruit. Thank you.

Matt Gregory (38:05): Yeah. I gotta work on my screech.

Alan Draper (38:14): Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Gregory (38:20): You doing the other one now? Yep.

Alan Draper (38:23): We're supposed to be spitting this out. Right. But I have too good. Yeah, yeah. And I haven't had too much caffeine. Yeah. If you want, I can get you a spit cup. I I got it right there. Just say the word.

Matt Gregory (38:29): Yeah. That's okay. No, no, I'm good. Wow. You know, I thought that I was gonna like the Honduras more, but I think I like the Ethiopia more. Yeah. just purely subjectively. Yeah. So

Alan Draper (39:04): I think you might be right.

Matt Gregory (39:07): They're both good.

Alan Draper (39:09): You know, this Honduras could have a lot. More flavor, a little bit lighter. I can see that this level of roast you might lose some. Yeah. But this is what I I want. Because I think and I've done it, you know, I did some sample roast. As you get lighter, some of those flavors might be a little overbearing for some people. Sure. So I know I'm losing some, yeah. But what I'm gaining is a little bit more of a cozy comfort yeah feel. But This Honduras is interesting. It does not like a dark roast. Okay. We're not supposed to I'm not supposed to tell you my impressions but please This this Honduras actually gets better as it cools for me. Yeah. Or it doesn't lose. So if I gave it an initial score, I can draw an arrow up or down. So I would score this on flavor and I would actually if I didn't get

Matt Gregory (39:50): Please do. Okay.

Alan Draper (40:12): A high score, I would draw an arrow on my evaluating sheet. Okay. So this I'm actually impressed with this. I'm getting a little bit of maple syrup, a little bit of molasses.

Matt Gregory (40:27): Yeah.

Alan Draper (40:31): Well wow. That Ethiopia is like a strawberry. my god. These naturals are are tricky because they can be single note. You you're just getting berry and it's intense, sometimes sour. But this one's so rounded to me.